On Wed, 1 Jan 2025, rbowman wrote:

> On Wed, 1 Jan 2025 12:49:09 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> I'm not surprised. It is fascinating how the company culture is created
>> to turn out bad software. Makes one wonder if it would be possible to
>> create a kind of anti-Microsoft company culture that would produce gems?
>
> I have my doubts, at least in the long term. Success leads to growth which
> leads to calcification.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Search_of_Excellence
>
> That was very popular in the '80s. Consultants would give training
> sessions, one of which I had to sit through. Many of the companies thaey
> used as examples of excellent corporate culture are no more. Some, like
> Hewlett Packard, are classics in corporate devolution.

I have this book somewhere. I think it was mostly common sense with added
fluff. Didn't feel like a revelation to me. But I guess the book was the
"agile" of its times. ;)

> fwiw, the company I worked for at the times didn't find excellence either
> and is gone. Come to think of it every company I ever worked for directly
> or on contract is gone. Maybe I'm the kiss of death?

Oh dear... Get thee behind me!! ;)

I have no idea really about the companies I worked for, except the common
household global IT companies, which still exist in various forms.

I think the few startups I worked for were mostly acquired one way or
another.

On 2025-01-01 10:25, chrisv wrote:
> -hh wrote:
>
>> (snipped, unread)
>
> The -highhorse snit sees an advocate or two admitting that they have
> no experience with Photoshop. The snit sees an opportunity to attack.
> He claims that advocate "haters" have been unreasonable. They have
> been "loudly critical" of a product that they have no experience with.
>
> When challenged, the snit moves the goal posts to advocates talking
> about prices and values, which he asserts is being "loudly critical"
> of the more-expensive product.
>
> The snit also positively *gloats* about the fact that one advocate,
> sdb, made a stupid argument in the course of one such discussion about
> value.
>
> But even if one accepts the snittish claim that calling Photoshop
> "expensive" or whatever constitutes being "loudly critical" of it, the
> initial attack was that we were unreasonably critical of something
> that we had no experience with, and thus were ignorant of.
>
> But the price has always been known! Being "critical" of the price is
> *not* being critical of something we have no experience with and thus
> are ignorant of!
>
> So, -highhorse's attack *fails* even if one accepts his snittish claim
> calling Photoshop "expensive" and comparing value is "loud" "criticism
> on cost".
>
> As usual, -highhorse attacked using nothing but idiocy and lies. As
> usual, -highhorse failed.
>
> And let's consider sdb's brain-fart of ten (or whatever) years ago.
> This is about the best that -highhorse can do, apparently. Yes, sdb
> arbitrarily assigned a one cent price to GIMP, to compare relative
> values. Yes, it was stupid. Notice the absolute *pleasure*
> -highhorse gets out of this single example. The guy is a genuine
> fscking *asshole*, folks.
>
> How many *stupid* things have freedom-hating assholes, like
> -highhorse, spewed in here? I have hundreds of examples of -highhorse
> and many others spewing mind-boggling stupidity.
>
> And sdb's brain-fart was only that. He wasn't being an asshole. He
> wasn't attacking anyone using idiocy and lies.
>
> -highhorse attacks people using idiocy and lies. -highhorse has
> claimed that advocates are "irrational" and "close minded", because
> they "hate" Photoshop.
>
> Do cola advocates really "hate" Photoshop, or did -highhorse attack
> using idiocy and lies?
>
> Between what sdb did, and what -highhorse did, which is worse?

I wonder if Hugh Huntzinger is an Ashkenazi Jew.

--
Andrzej (Andre) Matuch
Telegram: @AndrzejMatuch
Zephyrus G14 GA401QM on Fedora 41
KDE supporting member

On 2025-01-01 10:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 01/01/2025 15:26, chrisv wrote:
>> -hh wrote:
>>
>>> (snipped, unread)
>>
>> Around your family, you like to pretend that you're a good person,
>> don't you, -highhorse.
>>
>> If only they knew what an asshole you are, how eager to attack decent,
>> reasonable people you are.
>>
> I think the asshole round here, is you, chris

Actually, he's not. Hugh Huntzinger's only purpose in hanging out here
is the same as Michael Glasser's was: creating a pointless debate out of
nothing and constantly moving the goal posts to "win" an argument nobody
wanted to have in the first place.

--
Andrzej (Andre) Matuch
Telegram: @AndrzejMatuch
Zephyrus G14 GA401QM on Fedora 41
KDE supporting member

On 2025-01-01 14:46, TJ wrote:
> On 2024-12-29 18:53, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>> On 2024-12-29 16:54, TJ wrote:
>>> On 2024-12-28 06:12, D wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, 27 Dec 2024, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2024-12-27 18:04, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 27 Dec 2024 14:57:55 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, I appreciate that I can get gratis a piece of software that is
>>>>>>> that good.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you think Free Software could be better, and you would rather
>>>>>> not give
>>>>>> money to a proprietary company, why not contribute some of that
>>>>>> money to
>>>>>> the development of the Free Software and help make it better?
>>>>>
>>>>> Especially since projects like KDE and LibreOffice really need it.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Note that money is not the only way to contribute. Even by using the
>>>> software you contribute, by making others aware of it, you
>>>> contribute. I actually like projects that are not super wealthy. The
>>>> linux foundation and firefox are excellent examples of how power
>>>> corrupts. Would never dream of contributing with money to those two.
>>>
>>> Indeed. My discretionary funds are very limited, so I can not afford
>>> to contribute with money. But Mageia, as my distro of choice, is
>>> community- based, meaning it is maintained by volunteers who
>>> contribute their free time to make it as good as we can.
>>>
>>> I have no coding skills to speak of, so development isn't my forte.
>>> But, as the current Leader of the Mageia Quality Assurance (QA) Team,
>>> I contribute in other, equally valuable ways.
>>>
>>> We are the layer between the developers and the public, tasked with
>>> testing updates before they are released to be as sure as possible
>>> that they won't break Mageia systems. Developers are only human, and
>>> sometimes mistakes creep in - a missing dependency, or maybe the
>>> package won't work on hardware the developer doesn't have. Our job is
>>> to catch that stuff.
>>>
>>> We also test the install ISOs before they are released.
>>>
>>> We are always looking for new members, and users of all skill levels
>>> are welcome. One of the great things about Mageia is that the
>>> opinions of new contributors are received with as much respect as
>>> those of our "old hands."
>>>
>>> But those aren't the only ways to contribute. If something in Mageia
>>> doesn't work for you, please file a bug report. We also need
>>> translators, documentation writers, bug triaging, website designers,
>>> the list goes on.
>>>
>>> https://www.mageia.org/en/contribute/ is a good place to start if you
>>> wish to contribute to our project.
>>
>> I would have liked to try out your distribution before I settled for
>> Fedora. Your approach is pretty neat.
>>
> Thank you. But there isn't really any reason why you HAVE to use just
> one distro...

There is also no reason why I would use another.

--
Andrzej (Andre) Matuch
Telegram: @AndrzejMatuch
Zephyrus G14 GA401QM on Fedora 41
KDE supporting member

Charlie Gibbs wrote:

>> I'm not surprised. It is fascinating how the company culture is created to
>> turn out bad software. Makes one wonder if it would be possible to create
>> a kind of anti-Microsoft company culture that would produce gems?
>
>The Linux community seems to be as close to that sort of culture as
>we're likely to get.

No it doesn't. Of course, they don't have the resources of Microsoft
or Apple or Google.

Some people are thankful that freedom-fighters exist, and give credit
to them for providing a viable alternative to the corporations who
seek to mine our lives for profit.

Some people only sneer at their efforts, for not being quite good
enough.

On 1/1/25 4:38 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On Wed, 01 Jan 2025 06:22:23 -0600, chrisv wrote:
>
>> -hh wrote:
>>
>>> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> chrisv wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Again, I've never noticed any such thing.
>>>>
>>>> Many drivers are not given to noticing anything around them.
>>>
>>> Its also challenging to see the transgressions from inside the BMW. /s
>>
>> Being a motorcyclist, like myself, gets you in tune with what other
>> vehicles are doing.
>
> It also leads you to believe the motorists that aren't homicidal maniacs
> are brain dead zombies :)

ALWAYS assume so ! :-)

I had nothing but motorcycles for about 25 years, and
you only live if somewhere in the back of your mind
is the assumption that *THEY'RE OUT TO GET YOU*.

As for BMW drivers, can't say they're all 'bad', but
most I met WERE *entitled assholes* :-)

rbowman wrote:

> chrisv wrote:
>>
>> Being a motorcyclist, like myself, gets you in tune with what other
>> vehicles are doing.
>
>It also leads you to believe the motorists that aren't homicidal maniacs
>are brain dead zombies :)

I will say that it was dangerous enough, before the advent of idiots
looking at their "smart phones" while driving. One of my biggest
fears is being rear-ended by one of the dipshits while sitting at a
stop light.

--
"[chrisv] refueses to realize that MS & Apple weren't ever the only
OSs out there:" - lying asshole "-hh", lying shamelessly

> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>> chrisv wrote:
>>>
>>> It's not as if anyone has claimed, or would claim, that all BMW
>>> drivers are bad.
>>>
>> No. Only a majority of them

LOL Your silliness here does not excuse your assholery elsewhere.

Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
>On 2025-01-01 14:46, TJ wrote:
>> On 2024-12-29 18:53, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>>>
>>> I would have liked to try out your distribution before I settled for
>>> Fedora. Your approach is pretty neat.
>>>
>> Thank you. But there isn't really any reason why you HAVE to use just
>> one distro...
>
>There is also no reason why I would use another.

Fedora is the right choice for GNOME. I need Debian, though, because
it supports Cinnamon and is a flagship product, Mint would simply be
too much of the liberated "desktop" features, but yet its interface
can't be beat - except by using Cinnamon with another distro.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

D wrote:

>> Your other two recent posts were deleted, unread.
>
> This sounds to me like you admit defeat. (snipped, unread)

Trolling 101. Claim victory in the midst of defeat.

The reality is that I'm so much better that after making my point I
can ignore what dipshits say, with the confidence that no decent
person would side with the dipshit.

Your 4:01 post was deleted, unread, as will every post that you make
in this thread, from now on.

On Wed, 1 Jan 2025, pH wrote:

> On 2024-12-30, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 29 Dec 2024, pH wrote:
>>
>>> On 2024-12-28, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, 27 Dec 2024, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2024-12-27 18:04, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 27 Dec 2024 14:57:55 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, I appreciate that I can get gratis a piece of software that is
>>>>>>> that good.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you think Free Software could be better, and you would rather not give
>>>>>> money to a proprietary company, why not contribute some of that money to
>>>>>> the development of the Free Software and help make it better?
>>>>>
>>>>> Especially since projects like KDE and LibreOffice really need it.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Note that money is not the only way to contribute. Even by using the
>>>> software you contribute, by making others aware of it, you contribute. I
>>>> actually like projects that are not super wealthy. The linux foundation
>>>> and firefox are excellent examples of how power corrupts. Would never
>>>> dream of contributing with money to those two.
>>>
>>> This grabs my attention...as essentially a 'bystander' I've been totally
>>> unaware of these types of sentiments.
>>> Can someone give (or point me to) a thumbnail of why someone might have
>>> these opinions?
>>>
>>> Just curious....
>>>
>>> Pureheart in Aptos
>>
>> Sure... https://lunduke.substack.com/ writes plenty about the corruption
>> of firefox and the linux foundation.
>
> Thank-you for the link...
>
> pH
>

You're welcome! =)

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

>>>> Again, I've never noticed any such thing.
>>>>
>>> Many drivers are not given to noticing anything around them.
>>
>> I'm not one of them.
>>
>I rather think you are.

Ah. Another asshole who attacks without basis.

Joel wrote:

> (idiocy snipped)

No, it's NOT only true if you "abuse the road", idiot.

Make-up some more nonsense, while you're at it.

-hh wrote:

> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> chrisv wrote:
>>>
>>> Again, I've never noticed any such thing.
>>
>> Many drivers are not given to noticing anything around them.
>
> Its also challenging to see the transgressions from inside the BMW. /s

Being a motorcyclist, like myself, gets you in tune with what other
vehicles are doing.

On 2025-01-01 18:40, Joel wrote:
> Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
>> On 2025-01-01 14:46, TJ wrote:
>>> On 2024-12-29 18:53, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I would have liked to try out your distribution before I settled for
>>>> Fedora. Your approach is pretty neat.
>>>>
>>> Thank you. But there isn't really any reason why you HAVE to use just
>>> one distro...
>>
>> There is also no reason why I would use another.
>
>
> Fedora is the right choice for GNOME. I need Debian, though, because
> it supports Cinnamon and is a flagship product, Mint would simply be
> too much of the liberated "desktop" features, but yet its interface
> can't be beat - except by using Cinnamon with another distro.

Funny enough, there is a push within the Fedora community to make KDE
not GNOME the main desktop environment for the distribution. It
definitely works well, to say the least. I imagine that GNOME still has
problems or that the community is concerned the financial problems there
are a lot more serious than anyone is willing to admit.

--
Andrzej (Andre) Matuch
Telegram: @AndrzejMatuch
Zephyrus G14 GA401QM on Fedora 41
KDE supporting member

chrisv wrote:

>> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>
>>> chrisv wrote:
>>>>
>>>> It's not as if anyone has claimed, or would claim, that all BMW
>>>> drivers are bad.
>>>>
>>> No. Only a majority of them
>
> LOL Your silliness here does not excuse your assholery elsewhere.

Although it would not be unreasonable to assert that the majority of
drivers are bad, and that BMW drivers are not exceptional.

--
"How much are you willing to pay to not have your life shortened by 11
years (male); 13 years (female)?" - idiot "-hh", on the concequences
of contracting COVID

rbowman wrote:

>>>Better how?
>>
>> Better handling, or betterride/handling compromise, or better
>> acceleration and braking. Nicer interior.
>>
>> I'm not saying they always succeed, but these are the ideas. There's a
>> reason why they cost more. It's not just "spend more money and you get
>> this badge".
>
>Better home entertainment system. That seems to be what the reviewers are
>interested in these days.

It's claimed that "tech" is what buyers want, these days. I don't get
it. How much "tech" can one enjoy, while driving? Isn't it more
important to have a car that drives well?

But then, I'm old, so what do I know?

--
"The facts are that chrisv has not provided any material support for
his unsubstantiated 'nice' claim." - butthurt loser "-hh"

On Wed, 1 Jan 2025 23:14:26 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:

> Once I overtook a lorry that had a wheel... dunno how to describe. It
> had burst, part of the rubber was lost, and the rest of the rubber was
> spinning loosely, still thankfully retained. I was amazed, did not know
> what to do. I had passengers. I just speed past the danger. It was very
> early in the morning.

The part that is shed is referred to an an 'alligator' in the US. It's
best to avoid them.

Many of the big touring bikes like Gold Wings have cruise control as do
most big trucks. I've had riders who apparently had theirs set to 65.4
pass me when mine was set at 65, taking forever. I wanted to yell out the
window 'There a 9 tires on your side with 110 psi of air in them. Not all
are in the best of shape. Get your ass in gear and pass!'

Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
>On 2025-01-01 18:40, Joel wrote:
>> Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
>>> On 2025-01-01 14:46, TJ wrote:
>>>> On 2024-12-29 18:53, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I would have liked to try out your distribution before I settled for
>>>>> Fedora. Your approach is pretty neat.
>>>>>
>>>> Thank you. But there isn't really any reason why you HAVE to use just
>>>> one distro...
>>>
>>> There is also no reason why I would use another.
>>
>> Fedora is the right choice for GNOME. I need Debian, though, because
>> it supports Cinnamon and is a flagship product, Mint would simply be
>> too much of the liberated "desktop" features, but yet its interface
>> can't be beat - except by using Cinnamon with another distro.
>
>Funny enough, there is a push within the Fedora community to make KDE
>not GNOME the main desktop environment for the distribution. It
>definitely works well, to say the least. I imagine that GNOME still has
>problems or that the community is concerned the financial problems there
>are a lot more serious than anyone is willing to admit.

I would be surprised if Fedora made KDE the default and yet that is
the one they offer as an alternative, so one would imagine as you
suggest that if GNOME became defunct somehow, KDE would replace it,
but KDE strikes me as too arbitrary a choice for the default on that
distro, albeit GNOME could be thought to be one too, the problem being
that there just aren't enough DEs that are robust which can be
utilized by everyone. Cinnamon comes close, I like it myself but it's
not *quite* as solid as GNOME, and I presume KDE as well. It doesn't
bother me, as I'm not seeking perfection, but it's a consideration for
the Fedora community nevertheless I'm sure.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On Wed, 1 Jan 2025 23:26:48 +0100, D wrote:

> I have this book somewhere. I think it was mostly common sense with
> added fluff. Didn't feel like a revelation to me. But I guess the book
> was the "agile" of its times.

A few years back we had a presentation on 'pair programming'. It hit a
snag when the presenters were only familiar with Apple products and all we
could cough up was a Mac Mini we used to compile an iPhone app. The actual
programmers in the audience grabbed any free food laying around and
exfiltrated.
> I have no idea really about the companies I worked for, except the
> common household global IT companies, which still exist in various
> forms.

They wrote a book about one of them.

https://www.amazon.com/Sprague-Electric-Electronics-Giants-after/dp/
150338781X

'Sprague Electric: An Electronics Giant's Rise, Fall, and Life after
Death'

Bell Labs came up with the tantalum capacitor but Sprague was the first to
make them commercially viable. I did quite a bit of work for the tantalum
plant in Sanford ME. Even then it was starting to fall apart. I can't
remember the name but I believe a French firm was getting involved.

Other companies survived but not the division I was involved with like the
GE copier plant in Ft. Wayne. Some like DEC and GTE/Sylvania are just
gone.

Some of the changes were a little rough.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collins_Aerospace

At least the name of the company I worked for lives on even if it's dba as
UTC or Collins now.

https://www.helihub.com/tag/simmonds-precision-products/

It's hard to keep track. My sister-in-law said the company name on the
pension checks kept changing but as long as the checks arrived all was
good. I think it all fell into the Northrup Grumman black hole in the end.

On 2025-01-01, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 1 Jan 2025 12:49:09 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> I'm not surprised. It is fascinating how the company culture is created
>> to turn out bad software. Makes one wonder if it would be possible to
>> create a kind of anti-Microsoft company culture that would produce gems?
>
> I have my doubts, at least in the long term. Success leads to growth which
> leads to calcification.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Search_of_Excellence
>
> That was very popular in the '80s. Consultants would give training
> sessions, one of which I had to sit through. Many of the companies thaey
> used as examples of excellent corporate culture are no more. Some, like
> Hewlett Packard, are classics in corporate devolution.
>
> fwiw, the company I worked for at the times didn't find excellence either
> and is gone. Come to think of it every company I ever worked for directly
> or on contract is gone. Maybe I'm the kiss of death?

I doubt it. The word "excellence" tripped my bullshit detectors the first
time I heard it, and I've seen nothing since to make me change my mind.
It's been turned into just another management buzzword.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

On Wed, 1 Jan 2025 23:20:50 +0100, D wrote:

> Jokes aside, I always thought they all look like Kristi Noem. I can live
> with that! =D

There are quite a few of that model. She's Norwegian and according to the
2000 census 10.6% of the state claimed Norwegian ancestry, beating the
Indians by 3%. fwiw, 27% claimed German ancestry. A friend in the know
told me the majority of the Sons of Norway are Germans. That will teach
them to open membership to non-Norwegians.

While it's changing but if you look around at any local event it could be
any place in northern Europe.

On Thu, 02 Jan 2025 01:52:40 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> The word "excellence" tripped my bullshit detectors the first
> time I heard it, and I've seen nothing since to make me change my mind.

Let me compound that with this phrase I came up with: “epicentres of excellence”.

Does that send your alarms into triple red alert? ;)

On Wed, 1 Jan 2025 23:16:10 +0100, D wrote:

> Another "mini culture" I keep my eyes on is the sqlite community. In
> many respects, anti-Linux, but they are producing powerful software!
>
> Are there other projects you think are of similar power, in terms of use
> and quality, as sqlite? Maybe the curl community?

I like SQLLite and have used it in several projects. It works just as well
in C# .NET with

using Microsoft.Data.Sqlite;

as in C with

#include "sqlite3.h"

allowing both to use the same data. I do like that it's public domain
like most free software was before Stallman. otoh PostgresSQL is more
powerful and has a permissive license.

https://opensource.org/license/postgresql

After all, the SQLite developers ask "What would Postgres do?"

There are a couple of other worthwhile projects like Python :)

On Wed, 01 Jan 2025 21:09:53 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> Around here, most asshole pickups are black - although occasionally
> white - but all of them are immaculate. Not a speck of dirt. They've
> probably never been off pavement. The same make and model, but with
> some dirt and maybe a ding or two, is typically driven by someone who's
> using it for work, rather than as a penis extender.

Not my usual genre but I laughed my butt off at the scene at the end when
the credits are rolling and Sarge, the Willys Jeep, is running a bootcamp
for 4WD trucks and SUVs that have never been off the pavement.