https://www.theregister.com/2024/09/03/ubuntu_24041/

I think I'll give it a while to let the dust settle -- loke two or tree
years. Ubuntu joined the crowed by turning off os-prober by default,
meaning it will not report other OSs. I'd hit that with the latest Mint
iso that did ignored a Fedora installation and wanted to reformat the
entire drive.

Reluctance to move on isn't only in the Linux world.

https://www.theregister.com/2024/09/02/windows_11_market_share/?td=rt-3a

Windows 10 64.14 percent
Windows 11 31.63 percent
Windows 12 you gotta be kidding

On 3 Sep 2024 17:37:23 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> Reluctance to move on isn't only in the Linux world.
>
> https://www.theregister.com/2024/09/02/windows_11_market_share/?td=rt-3a
>
> Windows 10 64.14 percent
> Windows 11 31.63 percent

The gamers have switched, according to
<https://www.theverge.com/2024/9/2/24234091/microsoft-windows-11-popular-steam-pc-gaming-survey>.

And Microsoft is going to charge the businesses that want to stick to
Windows 10 for the privilege. If they are willing to become an extra
source of revenue, why not?

On Tue, 3 Sep 2024 22:45:22 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> The gamers have switched, according to
> <https://www.theverge.com/2024/9/2/24234091/microsoft-windows-11-
popular-steam-pc-gaming-survey>.

There are other computer users than gamers. That also applies to those who
judge Linux distros on their suitability for games. I'm not saying the
game industry isn't profitable.

https://news.rpi.edu/content/2018/06/26/rensselaer-game-design-program-
among-top-10-nationwide

I don't recall that being an offering when I was an undergraduate. At
least it's ranked in the top ten in some discipline; overall it's fallen
down into the 50s along with Podunk State.

On 4 Sep 2024 00:25:37 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> On Tue, 3 Sep 2024 22:45:22 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> The gamers have switched ...
>
> There are other computer users than gamers.

Gaming is the only area left where the dominance of Microsoft Windows is
not (yet) in dispute.

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 01:30 this Wednesday (GMT):
> On 4 Sep 2024 00:25:37 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 3 Sep 2024 22:45:22 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> The gamers have switched ...
>>
>> There are other computer users than gamers.
>
> Gaming is the only area left where the dominance of Microsoft Windows is
> not (yet) in dispute.

Technically, it also dominates in Adobe and similar products. Not that
they couldn't run on Linux if they tried at all.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

On Fri, 6 Sep 2024 20:20:04 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 01:30 this Wednesday
> (GMT):
>>
>> Gaming is the only area left where the dominance of Microsoft Windows
>> is not (yet) in dispute.
>
> Technically, it also dominates in Adobe and similar products.

Adobe is an irrelevance to 99% of Windows users.

Or, to put it another way, if the entire Adobe user base switched to
Linux, it would make very little difference to the Linux installed base.

On Fri, 6 Sep 2024 23:33:19 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> On Fri, 6 Sep 2024 20:20:04 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:
>
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 01:30 this Wednesday
>> (GMT):
>>>
>>> Gaming is the only area left where the dominance of Microsoft Windows
>>> is not (yet) in dispute.
>>
>> Technically, it also dominates in Adobe and similar products.
>
> Adobe is an irrelevance to 99% of Windows users.
>
> Or, to put it another way, if the entire Adobe user base switched to
> Linux, it would make very little difference to the Linux installed base.

Considering the billions Adobe rakes in annually there may be a few more
users that you think.

On 9/6/2024 7:33 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Fri, 6 Sep 2024 20:20:04 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:
>
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 01:30 this Wednesday
>> (GMT):
>>>
>>> Gaming is the only area left where the dominance of Microsoft Windows
>>> is not (yet) in dispute.
>>
>> Technically, it also dominates in Adobe and similar products.
>
> Adobe is an irrelevance to 99% of Windows users.
>
> Or, to put it another way, if the entire Adobe user base switched to
> Linux, it would make very little difference to the Linux installed base.

Still out of your mind I see.

"According to recent estimates, Adobe's Creative Cloud subscription
service had accumulated around 23 million active users as of mid-2022."

https://www.skillademia.com/statistics/adobe-statistics/

https://photutorial.com/adobe-statistics/

23M new Linux users would be a significant increase to the Linux
installed base of 17 (I didn't forget the M). It might even result in 2
more cola advocates.

On 7 Sep 2024 01:09:34 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> On Fri, 6 Sep 2024 23:33:19 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> Adobe is an irrelevance to 99% of Windows users.
>>
>> Or, to put it another way, if the entire Adobe user base switched to
>> Linux, it would make very little difference to the Linux installed
> base.
>
> Considering the billions Adobe rakes in annually there may be a few
> more users that you think.

Not really. Adobe were one of the pioneers in figuring out how to squeeze
maximum revenue from a stagnant or declining user base.

On Fri, 6 Sep 2024 23:20:08 -0400, DFS wrote:

> "According to recent estimates, Adobe's Creative Cloud subscription
> service had accumulated around 23 million active users as of mid-2022."

*Paying* users, yes. How “active” is “active”? Remember that, if you stop
paying, you lose control of your own work.

So I rephrase my claim slightly: “Adobe is an irrelevance to 98% of
Windows users”.

And there are good, in particular less restrictive, open source
alternatives to all of Adobe’s main products, no matter what their
marketing department tells you.

> 23M new Linux users would be a significant increase to the Linux
> installed base of 17 (I didn't forget the M).

The number of copies of Linux in active daily use is far greater than
that.

On 9/6/2024 11:39 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On 7 Sep 2024 01:09:34 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 6 Sep 2024 23:33:19 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> Adobe is an irrelevance to 99% of Windows users.
>>>
>>> Or, to put it another way, if the entire Adobe user base switched to
>>> Linux, it would make very little difference to the Linux installed
>> base.
>>
>> Considering the billions Adobe rakes in annually there may be a few
>> more users that you think.
>
> Not really. Adobe were one of the pioneers in figuring out how to squeeze
> maximum revenue from a stagnant or declining user base.

It's weird how lies and ignorance and idiocy just flow out of you. A
few clicks and you could've - and should've - proven yourself wrong.

"The run rate of new subscriptions is close to 1 million per quarter –
adding an average of ~10,000 net new paid members every day for the CC
2024 product line."

https://prodesigntools.com/number-of-creative-cloud-subscribers.html

I would say 'get it together' but you're too old for that.

On Sat, 7 Sep 2024 00:36:33 -0400, DFS wrote:

> On 9/6/2024 11:39 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> On 7 Sep 2024 01:09:34 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 6 Sep 2024 23:33:19 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>
>>>> Adobe is an irrelevance to 99% of Windows users.
>>>>
>>>> Or, to put it another way, if the entire Adobe user base switched to
>>>> Linux, it would make very little difference to the Linux installed
>>> base.
>>>
>>> Considering the billions Adobe rakes in annually there may be a few
>>> more users that you think.
>>
>> Not really. Adobe were one of the pioneers in figuring out how to
>> squeeze maximum revenue from a stagnant or declining user base.
>
> "The run rate of new subscriptions is close to 1 million per quarter –
> adding an average of ~10,000 net new paid members every day for the CC
> 2024 product line."
>
> https://prodesigntools.com/number-of-creative-cloud-subscribers.html

How many of those are actually new users of Adobe products?

Remember how many people complained about the rentware model when Adobe
introduced it, all those years ago? And swore that they would stick with
their old versions and not upgrade?

Well, most of these would just be those existing users relenting and
agreeing to hand over more money to Adobe. Otherwise you would see
evidence of an increase in market share, and there is none in the above
link.

Unless you have a more relevant link you can provide ...

rbowman wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On Fri, 6 Sep 2024 23:33:19 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 6 Sep 2024 20:20:04 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:
>>
>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 01:30 this Wednesday
>>> (GMT):
>>>>
>>>> Gaming is the only area left where the dominance of Microsoft Windows
>>>> is not (yet) in dispute.
>>>
>>> Technically, it also dominates in Adobe and similar products.
>>
>> Adobe is an irrelevance to 99% of Windows users.
>>
>> Or, to put it another way, if the entire Adobe user base switched to
>> Linux, it would make very little difference to the Linux installed base.
>
> Considering the billions Adobe rakes in annually there may be a few more
> users that you think.

Adobe forms and digital signatures are used heavily in business. And, of
course, while the PDF format is mostly open, that stuff is proprietary code,
so you won't find it in, say Evince.

Luckily, realtors and such have provided alternate ways of signing that work in
browsers.

The contractor/industrial complex:

- Adobe
- Cisco
- Microsoft

--
If I have trouble installing Linux, something is wrong. Very wrong.
-- Linus Torvalds

On 9/6/2024 11:42 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Fri, 6 Sep 2024 23:20:08 -0400, DFS wrote:
>
>> "According to recent estimates, Adobe's Creative Cloud subscription
>> service had accumulated around 23 million active users as of mid-2022."
>
> *Paying* users, yes. How “active” is “active”? Remember that, if you stop
> paying, you lose control of your own work.

You do not lose control of your docs when your Adobe (or MS 365)
subscription ends or you stop paying.

I'm no fan of Adobe's business practices (subscription-only, high
prices, crazy license terms, difficult and costly to cancel), but this
is a bullshit lie that Linux lusers like to propagate.

> So I rephrase my claim slightly: “Adobe is an irrelevance to 98% of
> Windows users”.

So?

Adobe is very relevant to the world of photography. Photoshopped long
ago became a verb.

> And there are good, in particular less restrictive, open source
> alternatives to all of Adobe’s main products,

More wishful thinking.

Creative Cloud ($59.99/month subscription) includes these 25 apps:

Acrobat Pro
Acrobat Reader
Adobe Express
Adobe Firefly
Adobe Fresco
Adobe Premiere Pro
Adobe Scan
Adobe XD
Aero
After Effects
Animate
Audition
Bridge
Capture
Character Animator
Dreamweaver
Fill & Sign
Illustrator
InCopy
InDesign
Lightroom
Lightroom Classic
Media Encoder
Photoshop
Photoshop Express

https://www.adobe.com/creativecloud/plans.html

Got any evidence there are good FOSS alternatives to even one of them,
let alone all of them?

If you want actual good alternatives to Adobe, the Affinity commercial
products are often recommended, and they're one-time purchase for a very
reasonable amt.

> no matter what their marketing department tells you.

When did Adobe's 'marketing dept' make such a claim?

>> 23M new Linux users would be a significant increase to the Linux
>> installed base of 17 (I didn't forget the M).
>
> The number of copies of Linux in active daily use is far greater than
> that.

I don't know about that. At any given time, cola has about 5 Linux-only
advocates. And that's down significantly from 10 years ago.

On Sat, 7 Sep 2024 09:48:51 -0400, DFS wrote:

> On 9/6/2024 11:42 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
> You do not lose control of your docs when your Adobe (or MS 365)
> subscription ends or you stop paying.

You can only open them read-only. You can no longer work with them. You
cannot even export them to a nonproprietary format.

If that’s not “losing control”, tell me what your idea of “control over
your own work” is.

>> So I rephrase my claim slightly: “Adobe is an irrelevance to 98% of
>> Windows users”.
>
> So?

So Adobe users are a minority of a minority. In the whole wide (Linux-
dominated) world of computing, they add up to a rounding error.

> Adobe is very relevant to the world of photography. Photoshopped long
> ago became a verb.

So did Xerox and Thermos. When was the last time you actually used a
product branded “Xerox” or “Thermos”?

> Got any evidence there are good FOSS alternatives to even one of them,
> let alone all of them?

The simple fact that most people don’t use Adobe products. QED.

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 22:56 this Saturday (GMT):
> On Sat, 7 Sep 2024 09:48:51 -0400, DFS wrote:
>
>> On 9/6/2024 11:42 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>> You do not lose control of your docs when your Adobe (or MS 365)
>> subscription ends or you stop paying.
>
> You can only open them read-only. You can no longer work with them. You
> cannot even export them to a nonproprietary format.
>
> If that’s not “losing control”, tell me what your idea of “control over
> your own work” is.

You can't even export it? That's terrible..

>>> So I rephrase my claim slightly: “Adobe is an irrelevance to 98% of
>>> Windows users”.
>>
>> So?
>
> So Adobe users are a minority of a minority. In the whole wide (Linux-
> dominated) world of computing, they add up to a rounding error.
>
>> Adobe is very relevant to the world of photography. Photoshopped long
>> ago became a verb.
>
> So did Xerox and Thermos. When was the last time you actually used a
> product branded “Xerox” or “Thermos”?
>
>> Got any evidence there are good FOSS alternatives to even one of them,
>> let alone all of them?
>
> The simple fact that most people don’t use Adobe products. QED.

--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

On 9/7/2024 6:56 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Sat, 7 Sep 2024 09:48:51 -0400, DFS wrote:
>
>> On 9/6/2024 11:42 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>> You do not lose control of your docs when your Adobe (or MS 365)
>> subscription ends or you stop paying.
>
> You can only open them read-only. You can no longer work with them. You
> cannot even export them to a nonproprietary format.
>
> If that’s not “losing control”, tell me what your idea of “control over
> your own work” is.
>
>>> So I rephrase my claim slightly: “Adobe is an irrelevance to 98% of
>>> Windows users”.
>>
>> So?
>
> So Adobe users are a minority of a minority. In the whole wide (Linux-
> dominated) world of computing, they add up to a rounding error.

Desktop computing is the largest, most important segment of computing,
and Windows has completely dominated it since 1990 or so.

Desktops are the ONLY reason any of us, including you, are here. So why
do you Linux lusers always babble about the paltry number of
supercomputers in the world?

>> Adobe is very relevant to the world of photography. Photoshopped long
>> ago became a verb.
>
> So did Xerox and Thermos. When was the last time you actually used a
> product branded “Xerox” or “Thermos”?
>
>> Got any evidence there are good FOSS alternatives to even one of them,
>> let alone all of them?
>
> The simple fact that most people don’t use Adobe products. QED.

So you have no evidence whatsoever.

"no matter what their marketing department tells you."

And no evidence for this wild-ass claim, either.

There's a good "advocate".

DFS <nospam@dfs.com> wrote:
>On 9/7/2024 6:56 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>> On Sat, 7 Sep 2024 09:48:51 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>> On 9/6/2024 11:42 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>
>>>> So I rephrase my claim slightly: “Adobe is an irrelevance to 98% of
>>>> Windows users”.
>>>
>>> So?
>>
>> So Adobe users are a minority of a minority. In the whole wide (Linux-
>> dominated) world of computing, they add up to a rounding error.
>
>Desktop computing is the largest, most important segment of computing,
>and Windows has completely dominated it since 1990 or so.
>
>Desktops are the ONLY reason any of us, including you, are here. So why
>do you Linux lusers always babble about the paltry number of
>supercomputers in the world?

That's a good argument until you realize that Winblows *isn't* such a
fantastic desktop OS, in the first place. Fun to use, sure, but only
if you have a very up-to-date computer, even Win10 in realistic terms
requires a lot of power, and 11 grew to be far worse.

Linux is a relief, from the commercial OSes' drag, M$ bloat and Apple
doofiness.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On Tue, 10 Sep 2024 22:09:45 -0400, DFS wrote:

> Desktop computing is the largest, most important segment of computing,
> and Windows has completely dominated it since 1990 or so.

In an era of SaaS and cloud based applications most desktops have become
glorified dumb terminals.

rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 10 Sep 2024 22:09:45 -0400, DFS wrote:
>
>> Desktop computing is the largest, most important segment of computing,
>> and Windows has completely dominated it since 1990 or so.
>
>In an era of SaaS and cloud based applications most desktops have become
>glorified dumb terminals.

The corporate-software drones may be going that way, I sure as hell am
not. I hate the concept of an app running in the cloud, how is that
not a downgrade? It would make sense for a video game, not for a
business app. And the AI crap is just laughable, "Copilot" my ass, I
assembled my computer and I can assemble knowledge, without an
overgrown bot spouting data to me.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On Tue, 10 Sep 2024 23:17:09 -0400, Joel wrote:

> rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>>On Tue, 10 Sep 2024 22:09:45 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>
>>> Desktop computing is the largest, most important segment of computing,
>>> and Windows has completely dominated it since 1990 or so.
>>
>>In an era of SaaS and cloud based applications most desktops have become
>>glorified dumb terminals.
>
>
> The corporate-software drones may be going that way, I sure as hell am
> not. I hate the concept of an app running in the cloud, how is that not
> a downgrade? It would make sense for a video game, not for a business
> app. And the AI crap is just laughable, "Copilot" my ass, I assembled
> my computer and I can assemble knowledge, without an overgrown bot
> spouting data to me.

I'm not a fan of cloud based apps like Microsoft 360. The software I
worked on ran on local servers (private cloud) but did the app was browser
based. There are advantages particularly for configuration and updates.

How much of what you consume is running on a server someplace? This
newsgroup? Youtube, spotify, jango, news feeds, maps, documentation,
blogs, social media? When I put together a Python script to measure
instances using a Pico and put the results on a small OLED using the I2C
interface, it's all local. I could pull the plug on the router. However,
I'm looking up the documentation on the web, downloading the MicroPython
interpreter, and so forth.

IBM's model was always big iron with dumb terminals, thin clients, or
whatever you want to call it. Pretty much the entire Chromebook design is
the same. Desktops are getting to be the same.

rBowman: IBM's model was always big iron with dumb terminals, thin clients, or
whatever you want to call it. Pretty much the entire Chromebook design is
the same. Desktops are getting to be the same.

Win11 running "Voice Access" ( fast, accurate, customizable, offline, free )
on a 4k, 32" monitor swinging on an arm, a massively customized browser,
a hyper customized 39 button mouse, no physical keyboard ( boots to BIOS ),
super fast NVMe M.2 terabyte SSD, half terabyte USB stick
& full control of everything is best.

You can't get that on a kiosk, especially not big, "hyper customized" stuff.

On 11 Sep 2024 05:23:54 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> IBM's model was always big iron with dumb terminals, thin clients, or
> whatever you want to call it. Pretty much the entire Chromebook design
> is the same. Desktops are getting to be the same.

I keep wondering about that. The obvious difference is, a Chromebook is
built around a web browser, which is the single most complex piece of
software that normal people use on a daily basis. Dumb terminals were
never like that.

rbowman wrote:

>IBM's model was always big iron with dumb terminals, thin clients, or
>whatever you want to call it. Pretty much the entire Chromebook design is
>the same. Desktops are getting to be the same.

Which is why, I guess, they need a dozen 5 GHz CPU's running in
parallel. 8)

--
'The funny thing is how many of the false "advocates" jumped up and
down and agreed with Ballmer about the iPhone.' - some thing, lying
shamelessly (but no one can quote it lying)

Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote at 02:41 this Wednesday (GMT):
> DFS <nospam@dfs.com> wrote:
>>On 9/7/2024 6:56 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>> On Sat, 7 Sep 2024 09:48:51 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>>> On 9/6/2024 11:42 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> So I rephrase my claim slightly: “Adobe is an irrelevance to 98% of
>>>>> Windows users”.
>>>>
>>>> So?
>>>
>>> So Adobe users are a minority of a minority. In the whole wide (Linux-
>>> dominated) world of computing, they add up to a rounding error.
>>
>>Desktop computing is the largest, most important segment of computing,
>>and Windows has completely dominated it since 1990 or so.
>>
>>Desktops are the ONLY reason any of us, including you, are here. So why
>>do you Linux lusers always babble about the paltry number of
>>supercomputers in the world?
>
>
> That's a good argument until you realize that Winblows *isn't* such a
> fantastic desktop OS, in the first place. Fun to use, sure, but only
> if you have a very up-to-date computer, even Win10 in realistic terms
> requires a lot of power, and 11 grew to be far worse.
>
> Linux is a relief, from the commercial OSes' drag, M$ bloat and Apple
> doofiness.

What do you mean fun to use?? Windows is one of the more boring UI's
I've dealt with.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom