On 2024-05-18, Andrew <andrew@spam.net> wrote:
> Jolly Roger wrote on 18 May 2024 03:13:53 GMT :
>
>> Frank is wrong, and so are you. What's comical is this is well known to
>> anyone who knows anything about it. SMS/MMS messaging has been around
>> since like 2002, so it's no secret.
>
> I found a cite which says the carrier is doing some of the compression.

I already told you that, dingus. You're not revealing anything new here.
Try and keep up. I know it's hard for you.
>
> But if the carrier was doing all the compression, why isn't it symmetric?
> <https://appletoolbox.com/blurry-videos-when-sending-from-ios-to-android-check-these-tips/>
> "There's actually a very noticeable downgrade in quality when
> sending content from an iOS device to and Android device.
> That blurriness isn't as prevalent when sending media from
> an Android to an Android."
>
> What is Apple's system doing that further reduces quality?

If you had bothered to read on, the following paragraphs tell you the
answer:

"This occurs because iMessage is incredibly well-integrated and
efficient — Apple handles data delivery from one point to another. Once
you send something via SMS, *your carrier gets involved* and that data
gets *terribly compressed*.

While data compression affects all images and videos, it typically
impacts *larger or high-quality images the most*. Videos are also heavily
affected, and usually, end up extremely blurry and unwatchable."

Your conclusion is wrong. It's not "Apple's system" reducing quality.

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

On 2024-05-18 05:42, Andrew wrote:
> Andy Burns wrote on Sat, 18 May 2024 13:22:01 +0100 :
>
>>> your point is valid that the problem works both ways because the
>>> two platforms default messaging systems are fundamentally incompatible.
>>
>> Let's see if it's still a problem after autumn(?) if/when iOS 18 gets
>> RCS integration ...
>
> Thanks for that hopeful RCS cheer, where I was wondering how you were doing
> since you haven't posted in a while. You're one of the most knowledgeable
> on the Android newsgroup - so your advice has been sorely missed by me.
>
> I don't hold high hopes for RCS for two reasons (but maybe I will be wrong
> and that will solve the blurry video problems between Apple & Android).
>
> 1. Apple tends to implement to the letter of the law (not to the spirit)
> 2. I'd rather not use any Google app (so I hope others implement RCS)
>
> We're still not out of the woods though with RCS, even if Apple finally
> figures out how to implement RCS without losing its walled-garden
> restrictions because Android to Android video compression is consistently
> said to be a far less blurry result than going between platforms.

I love how you just make up shit from your limited understanding.

>
> Why?
> I don't know why.
>
> All I know is that "Apple's system gets in the way" according to MacWorld.
> <https://www.macworld.com/article/232714/how-to-text-iphone-videos-that-are-not-blurry-on-android-and-vice-versa.html>
>
> Does anyone know what that means in terms of what's happening?

On 2024-05-17 18:36, Tyrone wrote:
> On May 17, 2024 at 11:21:34 AM EDT, "Andrew" <andrew@spam.net> wrote:
>
>> Tyrone wrote on Fri, 17 May 2024 00:48:21 +0000 :

....

>> Where exactly do the clips get split into different outgoing mechanisms?
>
> Not really sure how it all works. Assuming a "group chat" of mixed Apple and
> Android phones (I have several of those) I would ASSUME that it first goes to
> Apple servers. But not necessarily. There are settings on iPhones to use
> SMS/MMS "When iMessage is unavailable" but that could mean "When iMessage is
> down".
>
> The bottom line is you need the same app on both ends. If someone sends a
> video from any phone with WhatsApp to any phone without WhatsApp (is that even
> possible?)

Currently, no. It may be in the near/medium future, at least in the EU.

> then it would probably also be bad quality. Proprietary
> formats/protocols and such are likely involved.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Andrew wrote:
> Jolly Roger wrote on 18 May 2024 03:28:33 GMT :
>
>>> Whoa. I do not hate Apple.
>>
>> :)
>
> I post on the adult consumer operating system newsgroups the same types of
> things on the child-like Apple operating system newsgroups, Jolly Roger.
>
> Just because I post the truth about Microsoft, Canonical & Google, nobody
> there says I hate those companies. I don't like them. I don't hate them.
>
> *I just post the truth.*
>
> It's only on the child-like Apple newsgroups that the truth about the
> mothership is considered blashphemy, where, paraphrasing Hank's astute
> wisdom, you worship Apple to the point that you religious zealots scream
>
> "*Kill the Infidels!*".
>

I apologize for my rash outburst. I was wrong.

I do need to remember that this group is purely for discussing apple's
stock market standing, their business stature, profits and losses, customer
service, warranty performance, compatibility with other devices, lawsuits,
crimes, fines, regulations, political matters, etc. etc. ... Over the
complete world, and especially in europe, which is the most important region.

It is NOT for discussion of any technical details, and most definitely NOT
for helping anyone with problems they may have with using their device.
These people should be summarily insulted and dismissed. These assholes can
simply go to any apple store to get instant expert help from certified
apple geniuses who know everything. This is NOT the place to help anyone
with apple products.

On 2024-05-17 18:29, Jolly Roger wrote:
> On 2024-05-17, Andrew <andrew@spam.net> wrote:
>> Tyrone wrote on Fri, 17 May 2024 00:48:21 +0000 :

....

>> 3. Presumably that clip _first_ goes to an Apple iMessaging
>> server????? (is that correct?) (or does the iPhone do the splitting?)
>
> Wrong again. The video is sent as an MMS message which goes through the
> cellular carriers MMS service. Cellular carriers are notorious for
> degrading MMS video quality to reduce data usage on their networks.

I doubt that. They would directly reject the MMS, or simply charge for it.

I have never known of a cellular carrier degrading a video in transit.
The entry gate to the service that accepts or reject the video, yes. And
that one is Apple in this case.

....

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 2024-05-19 08:28, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2024-05-17 18:29, Jolly Roger wrote:
>> On 2024-05-17, Andrew <andrew@spam.net> wrote:
>>> Tyrone wrote on Fri, 17 May 2024 00:48:21 +0000 :
>
> ...
>
>>> 3. Presumably that clip _first_ goes to an Apple iMessaging
>>> server?????  (is that correct?) (or does the iPhone do the splitting?)
>>
>> Wrong again. The video is sent as an MMS message which goes through the
>> cellular carriers MMS service. Cellular carriers are notorious for
>> degrading MMS video quality to reduce data usage on their networks.
>
> I doubt that. They would directly reject the MMS, or simply charge for it.

I'm sorry, but this is known to be false.

>
> I have never known of a cellular carrier degrading a video in transit.

You not knowing it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

> The entry gate to the service that accepts or reject the video, yes. And
> that one is Apple in this case.

On 2024-05-19, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> On 2024-05-17 18:29, Jolly Roger wrote:
>> On 2024-05-17, Andrew <andrew@spam.net> wrote:
>>> Tyrone wrote on Fri, 17 May 2024 00:48:21 +0000 :
>
> ...
>
>>> 3. Presumably that clip _first_ goes to an Apple iMessaging
>>> server????? (is that correct?) (or does the iPhone do the
>>> splitting?)
>>
>> Wrong again. The video is sent as an MMS message which goes through
>> the cellular carriers MMS service. Cellular carriers are notorious
>> for degrading MMS video quality to reduce data usage on their
>> networks.
>
> I doubt that.

It's a well known fact that cellular carriers compress MMS videos.
Whether you believe it or not doesn't change that fact.

> They would directly reject the MMS, or simply charge for it.

They compress MMS videos that exceed a certain file size before
delivery. That's a fact.

> I have never known of a cellular carrier degrading a video in transit.

You don't know much then, because it's standard practice.

> The entry gate to the service that accepts or reject the video, yes.
> And that one is Apple in this case.

Wrong. MMS videos are sent and received over the cellular network -
internet services like Apple's iMessage) are *not* involved in the
transmission of the video.

The fact that people like Arlen and his little band of trolls claim to
know so much about technology, yet are this clueless about such basics
which have been in place for literal decades (all while chiding Apple
users for being clueless) says a *lot* about them.

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> On 2024-05-17, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
> > Andrew <andrew@spam.net> wrote:
> > [...]
> >
> >> The two questions which need to be known to begin to understand the
> >> process well enough to solve it are those which trace the path of the
> >> video clip.
> >
> > You can't "solve" it, without the *sender* using a *different*
> > method to get the video to you, i.e. as has been mentioned, using
> > some 'cloud' or other file transfer service.
> >
> >> 1. Is the video split up on the iPhone, Apple servers or carrier
> >> servers?
> >
> > With "split up", you mean the communication path is split, the video
> > isn't split.
> >
> > Answer: (As Carlos indicated,) On the iPhone. Your mobile number is
> > in the sender's (i.e. iPhone) contacts. The Messages app on the
> > iPhone sees it's a mobile phone number, so it decides to send a MMS
> > message. As Carlos mentioned, the decision must be taken on the
> > iPhone, because the cost of the MMS message (even if it comes out of
> > a bundle) must be charged to the iPhone user's mobile provider
>
> Close, but still incorrect. It's not about whether it's a phone number
> or not. It's about whether the recipient is an iMessage user. iMessage
> users can and do register their phone numbers as iMessage recipient
> numbers, and they can also register email addresses.

Thanks for the correction. My wording was too strong, as it was an
assumption, not a fact, because I don't have/use an iPhone.

My response was an extrapolation of how things work for WhatsApp.
WhatsApp has its own contact list, so it knows if a mobile phone number
is (also) a WhatsApp contact, or just a mobile phone number (i.e.
SMS/MMS).

> >> 2. Is the video downsized on the iPhone, Apple servers or carrier servers?
> >
> > As we don't use MMS in the real world,
>
> MMS has only been in use on mobile phones since 2002, and is still in
> use by people all over the world today, though certainly not as much as
> previous years, especially since more robust and feature-packed internet
> messaging apps gained popularity - but make no mistake, it is still used
> in the real world (and is what we are discussing in this very thread).

My comment was just a tongue-in-cheek, because MMS is mostly only used
in the US (and NA?), because the rest of the world uses modern Instant
Messaging platforms, such as WhatsApp. For the rest of the world, the
use of iMessage is rare and the use of MMS is even rarer.

This has been hashed and rehashed over and over again in these groups,
so please don't rehash it again.

> > I don't know where the
> > (resolution) shrinking of the video is done, but I assume it's done on
> > the iPhone. Doing it on other servers would mean a huge waste of -
> > possibly very costly - mobile data.
>
> No. The video is sent full size by the iPhone and the compression
> happens on the receiving cellular network.

Thanks for the correction. I should have thought of that, because MMS
could also be used on 'dumb'/'feature'/'flip' phones, which would
unlikely have the capability to shrink the video.

On 2024-05-19, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>> On 2024-05-17, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
>> > Andrew <andrew@spam.net> wrote:
>> > [...]
>> >> 2. Is the video downsized on the iPhone, Apple servers or carrier servers?
>> >
>> > As we don't use MMS in the real world,
>>
>> MMS has only been in use on mobile phones since 2002, and is still in
>> use by people all over the world today, though certainly not as much as
>> previous years, especially since more robust and feature-packed internet
>> messaging apps gained popularity - but make no mistake, it is still used
>> in the real world (and is what we are discussing in this very thread).
>
> My comment was just a tongue-in-cheek, because MMS is mostly only used
> in the US (and NA?), because the rest of the world uses modern Instant
> Messaging platforms, such as WhatsApp. For the rest of the world, the
> use of iMessage is rare and the use of MMS is even rarer.
>
> This has been hashed and rehashed over and over again in these groups,
> so please don't rehash it again.

Arlen is the one rehashing this yet again in the Apple newsgroups. We've
all been through this (and very similar) discussions with him before
here, but Arlen continues to harp on iMessage always in slightly
different contexts, and always in an attempt to cast Apple in a bad
light. Just because I was tired of his bullshit this time and spent time
correcting it doesn't mean I'm the one rehashing anything. 😉

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> On 2024-05-19, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
> > Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> >> On 2024-05-17, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
> >> > Andrew <andrew@spam.net> wrote:
> >> > [...]
> >> >> 2. Is the video downsized on the iPhone, Apple servers or carrier servers?
> >> >
> >> > As we don't use MMS in the real world,
> >>
> >> MMS has only been in use on mobile phones since 2002, and is still in
> >> use by people all over the world today, though certainly not as much as
> >> previous years, especially since more robust and feature-packed internet
> >> messaging apps gained popularity - but make no mistake, it is still used
> >> in the real world (and is what we are discussing in this very thread).
> >
> > My comment was just a tongue-in-cheek, because MMS is mostly only used
> > in the US (and NA?), because the rest of the world uses modern Instant
> > Messaging platforms, such as WhatsApp. For the rest of the world, the
> > use of iMessage is rare and the use of MMS is even rarer.
> >
> > This has been hashed and rehashed over and over again in these groups,
> > so please don't rehash it again.
>
> Arlen is the one rehashing this yet again in the Apple newsgroups. We've
> all been through this (and very similar) discussions with him before
> here, but Arlen continues to harp on iMessage always in slightly
> different contexts, and always in an attempt to cast Apple in a bad
> light. Just because I was tired of his bullshit this time and spent time
> correcting it doesn't mean I'm the one rehashing anything. ?

Sorry. Mixup.

I meant not rehashing the use of MMS. Because it's *not* "still in use
by people all over the world today". Yes, you added "though certainly
not as much as previous years", but those "previous years" are more like
a decade (or more), because in the rest of the world, especially the
'western' world, the use of MMS has been close to zero for many, many
years.

Thanks again for your corrections on my assumptions/guesses.

On 2024-05-19, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>> On 2024-05-19, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
>> > Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>> >> On 2024-05-17, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
>> >> > Andrew <andrew@spam.net> wrote:
>> >> > [...]
>> >> >> 2. Is the video downsized on the iPhone, Apple servers or
>> >> >> carrier servers?
>> >> >
>> >> > As we don't use MMS in the real world,
>> >>
>> >> MMS has only been in use on mobile phones since 2002, and is still
>> >> in use by people all over the world today, though certainly not as
>> >> much as previous years, especially since more robust and
>> >> feature-packed internet messaging apps gained popularity - but
>> >> make no mistake, it is still used in the real world (and is what
>> >> we are discussing in this very thread).
>> >
>> > My comment was just a tongue-in-cheek, because MMS is mostly only
>> > used in the US (and NA?), because the rest of the world uses
>> > modern Instant Messaging platforms, such as WhatsApp. For the
>> > rest of the world, the use of iMessage is rare and the use of MMS
>> > is even rarer.
>> >
>> > This has been hashed and rehashed over and over again in these
>> > groups, so please don't rehash it again.
>>
>> Arlen is the one rehashing this yet again in the Apple newsgroups.
>> We've all been through this (and very similar) discussions with him
>> before here, but Arlen continues to harp on iMessage always in
>> slightly different contexts, and always in an attempt to cast Apple
>> in a bad light. Just because I was tired of his bullshit this time
>> and spent time correcting it doesn't mean I'm the one rehashing
>> anything. ?
>
> Sorry. Mixup.
>
> I meant not rehashing the use of MMS. Because it's *not* "still in
> use by people all over the world today". Yes, you added "though
> certainly not as much as previous years", but those "previous years"
> are more like a decade (or more), because in the rest of the world,
> especially the 'western' world, the use of MMS has been close to
> zero for many, many years.

That's simply untrue. Just last weekend, my mom told me her friend who
uses an Android phone asked her why a video from someone else came
through very low quality, and I had to explain to her that the video was
sent as an MMS. People do still use SMS/MMS messaging today. It's not
nearly as popular as it once was, but people do still use it:

<https://www.statista.com/statistics/185879/number-of-text-messages-in-the-united-states-since-2005/>

That's only the United States. Globally the number is way larger:

<https://www.sellcell.com/blog/how-many-text-messages-are-sent-a-day-2023-statistics/>

> Thanks again for your corrections on my assumptions/guesses.

Welcome, though I'm mainly participating to combat Arlen's trolling and
disinformation.

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> On 2024-05-19, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
> > Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> >> On 2024-05-19, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
> >> > Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> >> >> On 2024-05-17, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
> >> >> > Andrew <andrew@spam.net> wrote:
> >> >> > [...]
> >> >> >> 2. Is the video downsized on the iPhone, Apple servers or
> >> >> >> carrier servers?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > As we don't use MMS in the real world,
> >> >>
> >> >> MMS has only been in use on mobile phones since 2002, and is still
> >> >> in use by people all over the world today, though certainly not as
> >> >> much as previous years, especially since more robust and
> >> >> feature-packed internet messaging apps gained popularity - but
> >> >> make no mistake, it is still used in the real world (and is what
> >> >> we are discussing in this very thread).
> >> >
> >> > My comment was just a tongue-in-cheek, because MMS is mostly only
> >> > used in the US (and NA?), because the rest of the world uses
> >> > modern Instant Messaging platforms, such as WhatsApp. For the
> >> > rest of the world, the use of iMessage is rare and the use of MMS
> >> > is even rarer.
> >> >
> >> > This has been hashed and rehashed over and over again in these
> >> > groups, so please don't rehash it again.
> >>
> >> Arlen is the one rehashing this yet again in the Apple newsgroups.
> >> We've all been through this (and very similar) discussions with him
> >> before here, but Arlen continues to harp on iMessage always in
> >> slightly different contexts, and always in an attempt to cast Apple
> >> in a bad light. Just because I was tired of his bullshit this time
> >> and spent time correcting it doesn't mean I'm the one rehashing
> >> anything. ?
> >
> > Sorry. Mixup.
> >
> > I meant not rehashing the use of MMS. Because it's *not* "still in
> > use by people all over the world today". Yes, you added "though
> > certainly not as much as previous years", but those "previous years"
> > are more like a decade (or more), because in the rest of the world,
> > especially the 'western' world, the use of MMS has been close to
> > zero for many, many years.
>
> That's simply untrue. Just last weekend, my mom told me her friend who
> uses an Android phone asked her why a video from someone else came
> through very low quality, and I had to explain to her that the video was
> sent as an MMS. People do still use SMS/MMS messaging today. It's not
> nearly as popular as it once was, but people do still use it:

Yes, in the *US*, MMS is still used, that's why I said:

<Me>
> >> > My comment was just a tongue-in-cheek, because MMS is mostly only
> >> > used in the US (and NA?), ...
</Me>

> <https://www.statista.com/statistics/185879/number-of-text-messages-in-the-united-states-since-2005/>

That's for text (SMS) and MMS. They don't say how much of that is MMS.

> That's only the United States. Globally the number is way larger:
>
> <https://www.sellcell.com/blog/how-many-text-messages-are-sent-a-day-2023-statistics/>

Same problem.

Anyway, I doubt you will get confirmation from any non-US(/-non-NA?)
person that they are sending or receving MMS messages, unless of course
they are communicating with US(/NA?) people.

As a - meaningless - data point: I have never sent or received a MMS
message and have never seen others in our country (The Netherlands)
sending or receiving them. Just too awkward and (often) expensive.

> > Thanks again for your corrections on my assumptions/guesses.
>
> Welcome, though I'm mainly participating to combat Arlen's trolling and
> disinformation.

Frank Slootweg wrote on 20 May 2024 14:53:38 GMT :

> Anyway, I doubt you will get confirmation from any non-US(/-non-NA?)
> person that they are sending or receving MMS messages, unless of course
> they are communicating with US(/NA?) people.
>
> As a - meaningless - data point: I have never sent or received a MMS
> message and have never seen others in our country (The Netherlands)
> sending or receiving them. Just too awkward and (often) expensive.

Success!
Apple w/o interoperability <https://i.postimg.cc/cLBNKJb7/fuzzy.jpg>
WhatsApp w interoperability <https://i.postimg.cc/QMGrqLb9/clear.jpg>

We have worked around the problem of Apple/Android interoperability.

Our first attempt using an iPad failed, but for a reason that nobody had
mentioned, which is that setting up the Messages on the iPad automatically
REMOVED that user from her Android cellphone in the chat.

We should have used a different cellphone number but Apple didn't let us
have that choice. (I guess we can go back and change it to an imaginary
phone number but I'm not sure because we got frustrated with Apple).

I hadn't thought about that problem ahead of time, but it's yet another
Apple issue that if you have your phone registered to both your iPad and
Android, even over Wi-Fi, Apple's messaging server will only send the video
message to the iPad and not to the Android. Apple can't do both.

After that attempt using the Apple messaging system failed, we ditched the
Apple messaging system altogether - which will be our workaround for now.

When the great grandchildren want to send videos to the family group,
they'll be sending them through WhatsApp from now on, avoiding Apple
messaging altogether. (Since we're in the USA, we'll only need to use
WhatsApp when sending messages between Apple & Android devices.)

(If everyone did this, Apple might finally decide to interoperate.)

Frank Slootweg wrote:

> I doubt you will get confirmation from any non-US(/-non-NA?)
> person that they are sending or receving MMS messages, unless of course
> they are communicating with US(/NA?) people.

I have sent less than a dozen, ever (too expensive) and received maybe
double that, none from outside the UK.

Andy Burns wrote on Mon, 20 May 2024 17:53:12 +0100 :

>> I doubt you will get confirmation from any non-US(/-non-NA?)
>> person that they are sending or receving MMS messages, unless of course
>> they are communicating with US(/NA?) people.
>
> I have sent less than a dozen, ever (too expensive) and received maybe
> double that, none from outside the UK.

I think you people across the Pond actually pay less than we do, in
general, for our cellular services, don't you?

I pay about $30 a month lately for each of four phones in my plan.
<https://i.postimg.cc/nhpbcP50/tmopromo04.jpg>

With that I pretty much get unlimited everything, which is why I didn't
worry about using MMS until the great grandchild was born recently.

At that point, I started getting millions of fuzzy videos from Apple owners
(the new parents are all on Apple products only) which was my introduction
to the MMS problem that you've told me about long ago that RCS may solve.

Here's what an MMS video looks like when sent by the Apple Messages app.
<https://i.postimg.cc/cLBNKJb7/fuzzy.jpg>

Here are those same videos when we completely ditched Apple's Messages app.
<https://i.postimg.cc/QMGrqLb9/clear.jpg>

Just as ditching iTunes on Windows _added_ functionality (i.e., iTunes
removes functionality from Windows the instant that you install it)...
<https://i.postimg.cc/fRtZFGSt/sharepod01.jpg>

Ditching Apple's Messages app instantly _increased_ our functionality.

BTW, Andy, do you have any idea how to work around the problem that arose
when we set up an iPad to use Messages, where the problem was Apple is
incapable of sending the message BOTH to the Android & iPad over Wi-Fi?

Andrew wrote:

> I think you people across the Pond actually pay less than we do, in
> general, for our cellular services, don't you?

Generally it feels like it, I pay for SIM only, so no bundled cost for
handset.

> I pay about $30 a month lately for each of four phones in my plan.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/nhpbcP50/tmopromo04.jpg>

GBP8/month for 20GB data, wifi calling, unlimited SMS, unlimited minutes
to mobiles and "normal" landlines.

> With that I pretty much get unlimited everything, which is why I didn't
> worry about using MMS until the great grandchild was born recently.

we pay about GBP 0.5 per MMS

> BTW, Andy, do you have any idea how to work around the problem that arose
> when we set up an iPad to use Messages, where the problem was Apple is
> incapable of sending the message BOTH to the Android & iPad over Wi-Fi?

No sorry, I have close to zero knowledge of iPads.

Andy Burns wrote on Mon, 20 May 2024 20:18:32 +0100 :

>> I think you people across the Pond actually pay less than we do, in
>> general, for our cellular services, don't you?
>
> Generally it feels like it, I pay for SIM only, so no bundled cost for
> handset.
>
>> I pay about $30 a month lately for each of four phones in my plan.
>> <https://i.postimg.cc/nhpbcP50/tmopromo04.jpg>
>
> GBP8/month for 20GB data, wifi calling, unlimited SMS, unlimited minutes
> to mobiles and "normal" landlines.
>
>> With that I pretty much get unlimited everything, which is why I didn't
>> worry about using MMS until the great grandchild was born recently.
>
> we pay about GBP 0.5 per MMS
>
>> BTW, Andy, do you have any idea how to work around the problem that arose
>> when we set up an iPad to use Messages, where the problem was Apple is
>> incapable of sending the message BOTH to the Android & iPad over Wi-Fi?
>
> No sorry, I have close to zero knowledge of iPads.

Thanks for both responses, where I think you guys across the Pond pay
mostly for what you use, while we pre-pay for packages of everything.

There are pros and cons to each system.
a. We pay through the nose but we don't worry a bit about usage.
The only thing that costs me money is International calling
(which costs, I think, twenty-five cents per minute as I recall)

My kids (who are still on my plan, use about 10GB/month (or so),
and about 5GB/month for hotspotting/tethering, while my wife and
I use only mere megabytes per month, which would easily fit into
your 20GB/highspeeddata/month.

b. You pay about 1/3rd of what we pay, apparently, but when you
start using too much data (in the form of cellular or MMS), then
your bills start to rack up it seems, while our bills is steady.

Your system is about 1/3rd cheaper.
Our system is easier on the worries.

Specifically your system discourages data usage (including MMS); whiule
ours encourage data usage (including MMS). Which is partly why iPhones have
more traction in the US than elsewhere, as the iPhone is a dumb terminal
without connecting to the Internet.

I'm not sure about iPhone traction in the UK & Europe but last I had
checked it was slightly over 1/2 the American phones in use (but since the
iPhone requires the Internet to be useful, it's only going to have traction
in countries which have steady predictable and fast 24/7/365 Internet).

As for the iPad workaround that failed, I think we would have been fine if
the iPad had been registered to an Apple account using a _different_ phone
number than the phone number on Android (it was my wife's old iPad).

It seems Apple has everything rigged to fail the instant you cross
platforms, but if we gave the iPad a bogus phone number for the AppleID
that Messages was signed into, it probably (maybe?) would have worked.

Dunno. I'm waiting for an astute iOS owner (yes, I know) to help me out.

On 2024-05-20 09:45, Andrew wrote:
> Frank Slootweg wrote on 20 May 2024 14:53:38 GMT :
>
>> Anyway, I doubt you will get confirmation from any non-US(/-non-NA?)
>> person that they are sending or receving MMS messages, unless of course
>> they are communicating with US(/NA?) people.
>>
>> As a - meaningless - data point: I have never sent or received a MMS
>> message and have never seen others in our country (The Netherlands)
>> sending or receiving them. Just too awkward and (often) expensive.
>
> Success!
> Apple w/o interoperability <https://i.postimg.cc/cLBNKJb7/fuzzy.jpg>
> WhatsApp w interoperability <https://i.postimg.cc/QMGrqLb9/clear.jpg>
>
> We have worked around the problem of Apple/Android interoperability.

There is no such problem.

>
> Our first attempt using an iPad failed, but for a reason that nobody had
> mentioned, which is that setting up the Messages on the iPad automatically
> REMOVED that user from her Android cellphone in the chat.

Registering a phone number with iMessage means that other iMessage users
will be sending iMessages to that number.

'You may need to turn off iMessage if you are now using a non-Apple
phone and cannot get SMS or text messages someone sends you from an iPhone.'

<https://selfsolve.apple.com/deregister-imessage/>

This is a CHOICE YOU MAKE.

>
> We should have used a different cellphone number but Apple didn't let us
> have that choice. (I guess we can go back and change it to an imaginary
> phone number but I'm not sure because we got frustrated with Apple).

You not understanding how your technology works and then blaming Apple
for it is pretty much your entire brand.

>
> I hadn't thought about that problem ahead of time, but it's yet another

You? Not thinking? Colour me shocked.

> Apple issue that if you have your phone registered to both your iPad and
> Android, even over Wi-Fi, Apple's messaging server will only send the video
> message to the iPad and not to the Android. Apple can't do both.

Apple makes the assumption that you want to use your Apple devices when
you register a phone number for iMessage use.

You didn't have to to:

YOU CHOSE TO.

>
> After that attempt using the Apple messaging system failed, we ditched the
> Apple messaging system altogether - which will be our workaround for now.

Or you could just unregister the phone number...

'No longer have your iPhone?

Follow the steps below to deregister your phone number.'

<https://selfsolve.apple.com/deregister-imessage/>

>
> When the great grandchildren want to send videos to the family group,
> they'll be sending them through WhatsApp from now on, avoiding Apple
> messaging altogether. (Since we're in the USA, we'll only need to use
> WhatsApp when sending messages between Apple & Android devices.)
>
> (If everyone did this, Apple might finally decide to interoperate.)

There is no way to "interoperate" with SMS/MMS messaging.

The limits are imposed BY THE CARRIERS.

On 2024-05-20 14:05, Andrew wrote:
> Andy Burns wrote on Mon, 20 May 2024 20:18:32 +0100 :
>
>>> I think you people across the Pond actually pay less than we do, in
>>> general, for our cellular services, don't you?
>>
>> Generally it feels like it, I pay for SIM only, so no bundled cost for
>> handset.
>>
>>> I pay about $30 a month lately for each of four phones in my plan.
>>> <https://i.postimg.cc/nhpbcP50/tmopromo04.jpg>
>>
>> GBP8/month for 20GB data, wifi calling, unlimited SMS, unlimited minutes
>> to mobiles and "normal" landlines.
>>
>>> With that I pretty much get unlimited everything, which is why I didn't
>>> worry about using MMS until the great grandchild was born recently.
>>
>> we pay about GBP 0.5 per MMS
>>
>>> BTW, Andy, do you have any idea how to work around the problem that arose
>>> when we set up an iPad to use Messages, where the problem was Apple is
>>> incapable of sending the message BOTH to the Android & iPad over Wi-Fi?
>>
>> No sorry, I have close to zero knowledge of iPads.
>
> Thanks for both responses, where I think you guys across the Pond pay
> mostly for what you use, while we pre-pay for packages of everything.
>
> There are pros and cons to each system.
> a. We pay through the nose but we don't worry a bit about usage.
> The only thing that costs me money is International calling
> (which costs, I think, twenty-five cents per minute as I recall)
>
> My kids (who are still on my plan, use about 10GB/month (or so),
> and about 5GB/month for hotspotting/tethering, while my wife and
> I use only mere megabytes per month, which would easily fit into
> your 20GB/highspeeddata/month.
>
> b. You pay about 1/3rd of what we pay, apparently, but when you
> start using too much data (in the form of cellular or MMS), then
> your bills start to rack up it seems, while our bills is steady.
>
> Your system is about 1/3rd cheaper.
> Our system is easier on the worries.
>
> Specifically your system discourages data usage (including MMS); whiule
> ours encourage data usage (including MMS). Which is partly why iPhones have
> more traction in the US than elsewhere, as the iPhone is a dumb terminal
> without connecting to the Internet.
>
> I'm not sure about iPhone traction in the UK & Europe but last I had
> checked it was slightly over 1/2 the American phones in use (but since the
> iPhone requires the Internet to be useful, it's only going to have traction
> in countries which have steady predictable and fast 24/7/365 Internet).
>
> As for the iPad workaround that failed, I think we would have been fine if
> the iPad had been registered to an Apple account using a _different_ phone
> number than the phone number on Android (it was my wife's old iPad).
>
> It seems Apple has everything rigged to fail the instant you cross
> platforms, but if we gave the iPad a bogus phone number for the AppleID
> that Messages was signed into, it probably (maybe?) would have worked.
>
> Dunno. I'm waiting for an astute iOS owner (yes, I know) to help me out.

Why must you lie, Arlen?