Anyone know how existing & new Google, Samsung & Apple phones are faring?
https://energy-efficient-products.ec.europa.eu/product-list/smartphones-and-tablets_en

1. Resistance to accidental drops or scratches
& protection from dust & water

2. Sufficiently durable batteries which can withstand
at least 800 charge and discharge cycles
while retaining at least 80% of their initial capacity

3. Rules on disassembly and repair, including obligations
for producers to make critical spare parts available
within 5-10 working days, and for 7 years after
the end of sales of the product model on the EU market

4. Availability of operating system upgrades for longer periods
(at least 5 years from the date of the end of placement on
the market of the last unit of a product model)

5. Non-discriminatory access for professional repairers
to any software or firmware needed for the replacement

On Fri, 3 Jan 2025 00:09:11 -0500, Isaac Montara
<IsaacMontara@nospam.com> wrote:

>Anyone know how existing & new Google, Samsung & Apple phones are faring?
>https://energy-efficient-products.ec.europa.eu/product-list/smartphones-and-tablets_en
>
>1. Resistance to accidental drops or scratches
> & protection from dust & water
>
>2. Sufficiently durable batteries which can withstand
> at least 800 charge and discharge cycles
> while retaining at least 80% of their initial capacity
>
>3. Rules on disassembly and repair, including obligations
> for producers to make critical spare parts available
> within 5-10 working days, and for 7 years after
> the end of sales of the product model on the EU market
>
>4. Availability of operating system upgrades for longer periods
> (at least 5 years from the date of the end of placement on
> the market of the last unit of a product model)
>
>5. Non-discriminatory access for professional repairers
> to any software or firmware needed for the replacement

Will these regulations apply in the UK?

On 2025-01-03 09:47, Scott wrote:
>
> On Fri, 3 Jan 2025 00:09:11 -0500, Isaac Montara
> <IsaacMontara@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>> Anyone know how existing & new Google, Samsung & Apple phones are faring?
>> https://energy-efficient-products.ec.europa.eu/product-list/smartphones-and-tablets_en
>>
>> 1. Resistance to accidental drops or scratches
>> & protection from dust & water
>>
>> 2. Sufficiently durable batteries which can withstand
>> at least 800 charge and discharge cycles
>> while retaining at least 80% of their initial capacity
>>
>> 3. Rules on disassembly and repair, including obligations
>> for producers to make critical spare parts available
>> within 5-10 working days, and for 7 years after
>> the end of sales of the product model on the EU market
>>
>> 4. Availability of operating system upgrades for longer periods
>> (at least 5 years from the date of the end of placement on
>> the market of the last unit of a product model)
>>
>> 5. Non-discriminatory access for professional repairers
>> to any software or firmware needed for the replacement
>
> Will these regulations apply in the UK?

As you have had explained to you at least twice before, they will become
a de facto standard, because it won't be worth the cost to the
manufacturers to produce a substantially different model for every
different market; on the contrary they will try and keep as much as
possible of every product the same world-wide.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On Fri, 3 Jan 2025 10:04:03 +0000, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid>
wrote:

>On 2025-01-03 09:47, Scott wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, 3 Jan 2025 00:09:11 -0500, Isaac Montara
>> <IsaacMontara@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Anyone know how existing & new Google, Samsung & Apple phones are faring?
>>> https://energy-efficient-products.ec.europa.eu/product-list/smartphones-and-tablets_en
>>>
>>> 1. Resistance to accidental drops or scratches
>>> & protection from dust & water
>>>
>>> 2. Sufficiently durable batteries which can withstand
>>> at least 800 charge and discharge cycles
>>> while retaining at least 80% of their initial capacity
>>>
>>> 3. Rules on disassembly and repair, including obligations
>>> for producers to make critical spare parts available
>>> within 5-10 working days, and for 7 years after
>>> the end of sales of the product model on the EU market
>>>
>>> 4. Availability of operating system upgrades for longer periods
>>> (at least 5 years from the date of the end of placement on
>>> the market of the last unit of a product model)
>>>
>>> 5. Non-discriminatory access for professional repairers
>>> to any software or firmware needed for the replacement
>>
>> Will these regulations apply in the UK?
>
>As you have had explained to you at least twice before, they will become
>a de facto standard, because it won't be worth the cost to the
>manufacturers to produce a substantially different model for every
>different market; on the contrary they will try and keep as much as
>possible of every product the same world-wide.

Evidently it is not quite as simple as that. In another thread it is
explained that Apple have withdrawn phones with lightning connectors
from the EU market and continue to sell them in the UK. I take your
point going forward about the de facto standard, but my question was
whether the new regs would apply de jure.

Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
> On 2025-01-03 09:47, Scott wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, 3 Jan 2025 00:09:11 -0500, Isaac Montara
>> <IsaacMontara@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Anyone know how existing & new Google, Samsung & Apple phones are faring?
>>> https://energy-efficient-products.ec.europa.eu/product-list/smartphones-and-tablets_en
>>>
>>> 1. Resistance to accidental drops or scratches
>>> & protection from dust & water
>>>
>>> 2. Sufficiently durable batteries which can withstand
>>> at least 800 charge and discharge cycles
>>> while retaining at least 80% of their initial capacity
>>>
>>> 3. Rules on disassembly and repair, including obligations
>>> for producers to make critical spare parts available
>>> within 5-10 working days, and for 7 years after
>>> the end of sales of the product model on the EU market
>>>
>>> 4. Availability of operating system upgrades for longer periods
>>> (at least 5 years from the date of the end of placement on
>>> the market of the last unit of a product model)
>>>
>>> 5. Non-discriminatory access for professional repairers
>>> to any software or firmware needed for the replacement
>>
>> Will these regulations apply in the UK?
>
> As you have had explained to you at least twice before, they will become
> a de facto standard, because it won't be worth the cost to the
> manufacturers to produce a substantially different model for every
> different market; on the contrary they will try and keep as much as
> possible of every product the same world-wide.
>

Well yes and no. The rules requiring Apple to allow third party App stores
do not apply to GB and you can’t access them in GB. (I’m being very careful
to exclude NI as I’m not sure how it works out for them). I pass no comment
on the rights and wrongs of such App stores, just pointing out that the EU
and GB markets are not entirely coincident.

Take the rule for battery life. If your phone battery breaches the 800
cycle 80% rule in the EU you might have rights to get the battery replaced
free of charge, and you might not have those rights in GB.

On 03/01/2025 10:14, Tweed wrote:
> Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2025-01-03 09:47, Scott wrote:
>>>
>>> On Fri, 3 Jan 2025 00:09:11 -0500, Isaac Montara
>>> <IsaacMontara@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Anyone know how existing & new Google, Samsung & Apple phones are faring?
>>>> https://energy-efficient-products.ec.europa.eu/product-list/smartphones-and-tablets_en
>>>>
>>>> 1. Resistance to accidental drops or scratches
>>>> & protection from dust & water
>>>>
>>>> 2. Sufficiently durable batteries which can withstand
>>>> at least 800 charge and discharge cycles
>>>> while retaining at least 80% of their initial capacity
>>>>
>>>> 3. Rules on disassembly and repair, including obligations
>>>> for producers to make critical spare parts available
>>>> within 5-10 working days, and for 7 years after
>>>> the end of sales of the product model on the EU market
>>>>
>>>> 4. Availability of operating system upgrades for longer periods
>>>> (at least 5 years from the date of the end of placement on
>>>> the market of the last unit of a product model)
>>>>
>>>> 5. Non-discriminatory access for professional repairers
>>>> to any software or firmware needed for the replacement
>>>
>>> Will these regulations apply in the UK?
>>
>> As you have had explained to you at least twice before, they will become
>> a de facto standard, because it won't be worth the cost to the
>> manufacturers to produce a substantially different model for every
>> different market; on the contrary they will try and keep as much as
>> possible of every product the same world-wide.
>>
>
> Well yes and no. The rules requiring Apple to allow third party App stores
> do not apply to GB and you can’t access them in GB. (I’m being very careful
> to exclude NI as I’m not sure how it works out for them). I pass no comment
> on the rights and wrongs of such App stores, just pointing out that the EU
> and GB markets are not entirely coincident.
>
> Take the rule for battery life. If your phone battery breaches the 800
> cycle 80% rule in the EU you might have rights to get the battery replaced
> free of charge, and you might not have those rights in GB.
>
All of that is related to usage, not the design/construction of the
phone hardware. Apple may well continue to sell some existing production
in the UK but as already said it is unlikely they will make special UK
versions of new hardware.

On 2025-01-03 10:08, Scott wrote:
> On Fri, 3 Jan 2025 10:04:03 +0000, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2025-01-03 09:47, Scott wrote:
>>>
>>> On Fri, 3 Jan 2025 00:09:11 -0500, Isaac Montara
>>> <IsaacMontara@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Anyone know how existing & new Google, Samsung & Apple phones are faring?
>>>> https://energy-efficient-products.ec.europa.eu/product-list/smartphones-and-tablets_en
>>>>
>>>> 1. Resistance to accidental drops or scratches
>>>> & protection from dust & water
>>>>
>>>> 2. Sufficiently durable batteries which can withstand
>>>> at least 800 charge and discharge cycles
>>>> while retaining at least 80% of their initial capacity
>>>>
>>>> 3. Rules on disassembly and repair, including obligations
>>>> for producers to make critical spare parts available
>>>> within 5-10 working days, and for 7 years after
>>>> the end of sales of the product model on the EU market
>>>>
>>>> 4. Availability of operating system upgrades for longer periods
>>>> (at least 5 years from the date of the end of placement on
>>>> the market of the last unit of a product model)
>>>>
>>>> 5. Non-discriminatory access for professional repairers
>>>> to any software or firmware needed for the replacement
>>>
>>> Will these regulations apply in the UK?
>>
>> As you have had explained to you at least twice before, they will become
>> a de facto standard, because it won't be worth the cost to the
>> manufacturers to produce a substantially different model for every
>> different market; on the contrary they will try and keep as much as
>> possible of every product the same world-wide.
>
> Evidently it is not quite as simple as that. In another thread it is
> explained that Apple have withdrawn phones with lightning connectors
> from the EU market and continue to sell them in the UK.

I haven't seen that other thread, but they may well be offloading old
stock pending newer models. Eventually market forces can be expected to
prevail.

> I take your
> point going forward about the de facto standard, but my question was
> whether the new regs would apply de jure.

Well obviously not as stated in the OP, because since Brexit we're no
longer bound by that legal system, otherwise Apple would not be selling
phones with lightning connectors here as claimed above. HMG would have
to bring in legislation of its own mirroring that of the EU, and I would
have thought if they were doing so we would have seen something about it
by now.

Mind, I've lost access to the BBC News RSS feeds, including the
Technology news feed, because the supplier of the translation script -
that enabled me to create on my PCs a web page summarising them - has
discontinued the service, so, as I've not had time to write my own, I've
not been keeping so well up to date for about three or four months now.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
> On 2025-01-03 10:08, Scott wrote:
>> On Fri, 3 Jan 2025 10:04:03 +0000, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2025-01-03 09:47, Scott wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, 3 Jan 2025 00:09:11 -0500, Isaac Montara
>>>> <IsaacMontara@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyone know how existing & new Google, Samsung & Apple phones are faring?
>>>>> https://energy-efficient-products.ec.europa.eu/product-list/smartphones-and-tablets_en
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Resistance to accidental drops or scratches
>>>>> & protection from dust & water
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. Sufficiently durable batteries which can withstand
>>>>> at least 800 charge and discharge cycles
>>>>> while retaining at least 80% of their initial capacity
>>>>>
>>>>> 3. Rules on disassembly and repair, including obligations
>>>>> for producers to make critical spare parts available
>>>>> within 5-10 working days, and for 7 years after
>>>>> the end of sales of the product model on the EU market
>>>>>
>>>>> 4. Availability of operating system upgrades for longer periods
>>>>> (at least 5 years from the date of the end of placement on
>>>>> the market of the last unit of a product model)
>>>>>
>>>>> 5. Non-discriminatory access for professional repairers
>>>>> to any software or firmware needed for the replacement
>>>>
>>>> Will these regulations apply in the UK?
>>>
>>> As you have had explained to you at least twice before, they will become
>>> a de facto standard, because it won't be worth the cost to the
>>> manufacturers to produce a substantially different model for every
>>> different market; on the contrary they will try and keep as much as
>>> possible of every product the same world-wide.
>>
>> Evidently it is not quite as simple as that. In another thread it is
>> explained that Apple have withdrawn phones with lightning connectors
>> from the EU market and continue to sell them in the UK.
>
> I haven't seen that other thread, but they may well be offloading old
> stock pending newer models. Eventually market forces can be expected to
> prevail.

Apple have removed the iphone 14 and SE from sale in the EU and Northern
Ireland due to the regulations coming into effect on 30th December.

Both models are still available in the rest of the UK.

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Fri, 3 Jan 2025 10:04:03 +0000, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2025-01-03 09:47, Scott wrote:
>>>
>>> On Fri, 3 Jan 2025 00:09:11 -0500, Isaac Montara
>>> <IsaacMontara@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Anyone know how existing & new Google, Samsung & Apple phones are faring?
>>>> https://energy-efficient-products.ec.europa.eu/product-list/smartphones-and-tablets_en
>>>>
>>>> 1. Resistance to accidental drops or scratches
>>>> & protection from dust & water
>>>>
>>>> 2. Sufficiently durable batteries which can withstand
>>>> at least 800 charge and discharge cycles
>>>> while retaining at least 80% of their initial capacity
>>>>
>>>> 3. Rules on disassembly and repair, including obligations
>>>> for producers to make critical spare parts available
>>>> within 5-10 working days, and for 7 years after
>>>> the end of sales of the product model on the EU market
>>>>
>>>> 4. Availability of operating system upgrades for longer periods
>>>> (at least 5 years from the date of the end of placement on
>>>> the market of the last unit of a product model)
>>>>
>>>> 5. Non-discriminatory access for professional repairers
>>>> to any software or firmware needed for the replacement
>>>
>>> Will these regulations apply in the UK?
>>
>> As you have had explained to you at least twice before, they will become
>> a de facto standard, because it won't be worth the cost to the
>> manufacturers to produce a substantially different model for every
>> different market; on the contrary they will try and keep as much as
>> possible of every product the same world-wide.
>
> Evidently it is not quite as simple as that. In another thread it is
> explained that Apple have withdrawn phones with lightning connectors
> from the EU market and continue to sell them in the UK. I take your
> point going forward about the de facto standard, but my question was
> whether the new regs would apply de jure.

Nope. That was the main argument for brexit. We in the UK are no longer
bound by the EU regulations.

The result, as shown with the lightning port, is that we're now dependent
on the business decisions of Apple et al. Obviously, they have to comply
with EU regs and some will trickle down to the UK market, but not all, as
deemed by Apple.

UK gov may choose to do something about it.

MikeS <MikeS@fred.com> wrote:
> Apple may well continue to sell some existing production
> in the UK but as already said it is unlikely they will make special UK
> versions of new hardware.

Definitely true. The UK (or more likely GB) won't get specific models, but,
as we're already seeing, will still get any models which do not comply with
the EU regs .

>>>>> Will these regulations apply in the UK?
>>>>
>>>> As you have had explained to you at least twice before, they will become
>>>> a de facto standard, because it won't be worth the cost to the
>>>> manufacturers to produce a substantially different model for every
>>>> different market; on the contrary they will try and keep as much as
>>>> possible of every product the same world-wide.
>>>
>>> Evidently it is not quite as simple as that. In another thread it is
>>> explained that Apple have withdrawn phones with lightning connectors
>>> from the EU market and continue to sell them in the UK.
>>
>> I haven't seen that other thread, but they may well be offloading old
>> stock pending newer models. Eventually market forces can be expected to
>> prevail.
>
> Apple have removed the iphone 14 and SE from sale in the EU and Northern
> Ireland due to the regulations coming into effect on 30th December.
>
> Both models are still available in the rest of the UK.

While Android phones typically *double* the EU minimum standards...

Bear in mind that Apple is cognizant that their use of cheap batteries in
the iPhone means they'll have to label those same phones as very clearly
NOT meeting the upcoming 2025 EU battery charge-cycle lifetime standards.

Apple has always cheaped out on batteries and hardware (such as RAM).
Now Apple's addiction to cheap components returns to bite them back.

Not only has Apple always been cheap on batteries, but on RAM also.
Which means only the latest iPhones can run the memory intensive AI apps.

In other words, even the very few iPhones that "can" be sold in the EU
after June of this year still *barely* squeak by due to cheap components.

It's just more evidence of the obvious maxim: *Apple hates you*

Chris wrote on Fri, 3 Jan 2025 13:20:20 -0000 (UTC) :

>> Apple may well continue to sell some existing production
>> in the UK but as already said it is unlikely they will make special UK
>> versions of new hardware.
>
> Definitely true. The UK (or more likely GB) won't get specific models, but,
> as we're already seeing, will still get any models which do not comply with
> the EU regs .

Bear in mind that no iPhone older than the iPhone 15 meets the bare minimum
battery lifetime charge cycle EU standard, while Android phones double it.

The reason?
Apple has always been addicted to putting cheap components in their iPhone.

Putting that well known fact in context, it's further evidence that...
*Apple hates you*.

On 2025-01-03 11:03, Andrew wrote:
>>>>>> Will these regulations apply in the UK?
>>>>>
>>>>> As you have had explained to you at least twice before, they will
>>>>> become
>>>>> a de facto standard, because it won't be worth the cost to the
>>>>> manufacturers to produce a substantially different model for every
>>>>> different market; on the contrary they will try and keep as much as
>>>>> possible of every product the same world-wide.
>>>>
>>>> Evidently it is not quite as simple as that. In another thread it is
>>>> explained that Apple have withdrawn phones with lightning connectors
>>>> from the EU market and continue to sell them in the UK.
>>>
>>> I haven't seen that other thread, but they may well be offloading old
>>> stock pending newer models.  Eventually market forces can be expected
>>> to prevail.
>>
>> Apple have removed the iphone 14 and SE from sale in the EU and Northern
>> Ireland due to the regulations coming into effect on 30th December.
>> Both models are still available in the rest of the UK.

Let's play, "Count the unsupported assertions"!

>
> While Android phones typically *double* the EU minimum standards...

Unsupported assertion!

> Bear in mind that Apple is cognizant that their use of cheap batteries in
> the iPhone means they'll have to label those same phones as very clearly
> NOT meeting the upcoming 2025 EU battery charge-cycle lifetime standards.

Unsupported assertion!

>
> Apple has always cheaped out on batteries and hardware (such as RAM).

Two unsupported assertions!

> Now Apple's addiction to cheap components returns to bite them back.
>
> Not only has Apple always been cheap on batteries, but on RAM also.
> Which means only the latest iPhones can run the memory intensive AI apps.

Another unsupported assertion!

>
> In other words, even the very few iPhones that "can" be sold in the EU
> after June of this year still *barely* squeak by due to cheap components.

Another!

>
> It's just more evidence of the obvious maxim: *Apple hates you*

Unsupported assertion and obvious bullshit on top of it!

On 2025-01-03 11:07, Andrew wrote:
> Chris wrote on Fri, 3 Jan 2025 13:20:20 -0000 (UTC) :
>
>>> Apple may well continue to sell some existing production in the UK
>>> but as already said it is unlikely they will make special UK versions
>>> of new hardware.
>>
>> Definitely true. The UK (or more likely GB) won't get specific models,
>> but,
>> as we're already seeing, will still get any models which do not comply
>> with
>> the EU regs .
>
> Bear in mind that no iPhone older than the iPhone 15 meets the bare minimum
> battery lifetime charge cycle EU standard, while Android phones double it.

Prove it.

On 10:14 3 Jan 2025, Tweed said:
> Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>
> Well yes and no. The rules requiring Apple to allow third party App
> stores do not apply to GB and you can�t access them in GB. (I�m
> being very careful to exclude NI as I�m not sure how it works out
> for them). I pass no comment on the rights and wrongs of such App
> stores, just pointing out that the EU and GB markets are not entirely
> coincident.
>
> Take the rule for battery life. If your phone battery breaches the 800
> cycle 80% rule in the EU you might have rights to get the battery
> replaced free of charge, and you might not have those rights in GB.

Wasn't there also a requirement for the battery to be user replaceable?

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> Pamela wrote:
>
>> Wasn't there also a requirement for the battery to be user replaceable?
>
> Not in effect for a couple of years, I think ...
>

https://environment.ec.europa.eu/news/new-law-more-sustainable-circular-and-safe-batteries-enters-force-2023-08-17_en

2027, though I can’t find an exact date. Not just phones either.

On Sun, 5 Jan 2025 16:45:14 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>> Pamela wrote:
>>
>>> Wasn't there also a requirement for the battery to be user replaceable?
>>
>> Not in effect for a couple of years, I think ...
>>
>
>https://environment.ec.europa.eu/news/new-law-more-sustainable-circular-and-safe-batteries-enters-force-2023-08-17_en
>
>2027, though I can’t find an exact date. Not just phones either.

Electric vehicles?

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Jan 2025 16:45:14 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>>> Pamela wrote:
>>>
>>>> Wasn't there also a requirement for the battery to be user replaceable?
>>>
>>> Not in effect for a couple of years, I think ...
>>>
>>
>> https://environment.ec.europa.eu/news/new-law-more-sustainable-circular-and-safe-batteries-enters-force-2023-08-17_en
>>
>> 2027, though I can’t find an exact date. Not just phones either.
>
> Electric vehicles?
>

I don’t think so. Things like power tools, radios, toothbrushes etc. A user
replaceable EV battery could be quite a dangerous affair.

On Sun, 5 Jan 2025 17:33:29 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Sun, 5 Jan 2025 16:45:14 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>>>> Pamela wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Wasn't there also a requirement for the battery to be user replaceable?
>>>>
>>>> Not in effect for a couple of years, I think ...
>>>>
>>>
>>> https://environment.ec.europa.eu/news/new-law-more-sustainable-circular-and-safe-batteries-enters-force-2023-08-17_en
>>>
>>> 2027, though I can?t find an exact date. Not just phones either.
>>
>> Electric vehicles?
>>
>I don’t think so. Things like power tools, radios, toothbrushes etc. A user
>replaceable EV battery could be quite a dangerous affair.

It might improve the residual value though.

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Jan 2025 17:33:29 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 5 Jan 2025 16:45:14 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>>>>> Pamela wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Wasn't there also a requirement for the battery to be user replaceable?
>>>>>
>>>>> Not in effect for a couple of years, I think ...
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://environment.ec.europa.eu/news/new-law-more-sustainable-circular-and-safe-batteries-enters-force-2023-08-17_en
>>>>
>>>> 2027, though I can?t find an exact date. Not just phones either.
>>>
>>> Electric vehicles?
>>>
>> I don’t think so. Things like power tools, radios, toothbrushes etc. A user
>> replaceable EV battery could be quite a dangerous affair.
>
> It might improve the residual value though.
>

Unlikely. Batteries are around £2500 per 10kWhr retail judging by the cost
of a house battery.

On Sun, 5 Jan 2025 17:47:44 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Sun, 5 Jan 2025 17:33:29 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 5 Jan 2025 16:45:14 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> Pamela wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Wasn't there also a requirement for the battery to be user replaceable?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not in effect for a couple of years, I think ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://environment.ec.europa.eu/news/new-law-more-sustainable-circular-and-safe-batteries-enters-force-2023-08-17_en
>>>>>
>>>>> 2027, though I can?t find an exact date. Not just phones either.
>>>>
>>>> Electric vehicles?
>>>>
>>> I don?t think so. Things like power tools, radios, toothbrushes etc. A user
>>> replaceable EV battery could be quite a dangerous affair.
>>
>> It might improve the residual value though.
>>
>Unlikely. Batteries are around £2500 per 10kWhr retail judging by the cost
>of a house battery.

Would it not allow an aftermarket for generic batteries instead of
being bound by the OEM? I was offered a second hand Zoe at a very low
price at one stage but when I realised the battery arrangements (lease
from Renault) and the very low range of such a model I dismissed the
idea very quickly.

In uk.telecom.mobile Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Jan 2025 17:47:44 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> >> On Sun, 5 Jan 2025 17:33:29 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
> >> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> >>>> On Sun, 5 Jan 2025 16:45:14 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
> >>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> >>>>>> Pamela wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Wasn't there also a requirement for the battery to be user replaceable?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Not in effect for a couple of years, I think ...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> https://environment.ec.europa.eu/news/new-law-more-sustainable-circular-and-safe-batteries-enters-force-2023-08-17_en
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 2027, though I can?t find an exact date. Not just phones either.
> >>>>
> >>>> Electric vehicles?
> >>>>
> >>> I don?t think so. Things like power tools, radios, toothbrushes etc. A user
> >>> replaceable EV battery could be quite a dangerous affair.
> >>
> >> It might improve the residual value though.
> >>
> >Unlikely. Batteries are around £2500 per 10kWhr retail judging by the cost
> >of a house battery.
>
> Would it not allow an aftermarket for generic batteries instead of
> being bound by the OEM? I was offered a second hand Zoe at a very low
> price at one stage but when I realised the battery arrangements (lease
> from Renault) and the very low range of such a model I dismissed the
> idea very quickly.

EV batteries weigh about 200kg. Consumers aren't going to be changing them
because they don't have the lifting gear (hydraulic lifts and scissor
tables). If you have gear unscrewing them from the bottom of the vehicle is
not complicated, although could be dangerous without safety precautions. In
no world are consumers going to be changing them like they change wiper
blades.

Batteries are designed to fit the car so you need to swap in an OEM battery
- just like engines it may theoretically be possible to swap something else,
but it's a lot of work (mechanically, electrically and software). There is
no standard 1.6 engine that'll fit in every car, and batteries are similarly
bespoke.

Theo

On 05 Jan 2025 20:19:22 +0000 (GMT), Theo
<theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

>In uk.telecom.mobile Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Sun, 5 Jan 2025 17:47:44 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> >> On Sun, 5 Jan 2025 17:33:29 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>> >> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> >>>> On Sun, 5 Jan 2025 16:45:14 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>> >>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>> >>>>>> Pamela wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Wasn't there also a requirement for the battery to be user replaceable?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Not in effect for a couple of years, I think ...
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> https://environment.ec.europa.eu/news/new-law-more-sustainable-circular-and-safe-batteries-enters-force-2023-08-17_en
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> 2027, though I can?t find an exact date. Not just phones either.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Electric vehicles?
>> >>>>
>> >>> I don?t think so. Things like power tools, radios, toothbrushes etc. A user
>> >>> replaceable EV battery could be quite a dangerous affair.
>> >>
>> >> It might improve the residual value though.
>> >>
>> >Unlikely. Batteries are around £2500 per 10kWhr retail judging by the cost
>> >of a house battery.
>>
>> Would it not allow an aftermarket for generic batteries instead of
>> being bound by the OEM? I was offered a second hand Zoe at a very low
>> price at one stage but when I realised the battery arrangements (lease
>> from Renault) and the very low range of such a model I dismissed the
>> idea very quickly.
>
>EV batteries weigh about 200kg. Consumers aren't going to be changing them
>because they don't have the lifting gear (hydraulic lifts and scissor
>tables). If you have gear unscrewing them from the bottom of the vehicle is
>not complicated, although could be dangerous without safety precautions. In
>no world are consumers going to be changing them like they change wiper
>blades.
>
>Batteries are designed to fit the car so you need to swap in an OEM battery
>- just like engines it may theoretically be possible to swap something else,
>but it's a lot of work (mechanically, electrically and software). There is
>no standard 1.6 engine that'll fit in every car, and batteries are similarly
>bespoke.
>
That puts paid to the idea of having a standard battery for all the
cars and swapping them from underneath at the filling station using a
mechanical arm as was suggested at one time :-)

On 2025-01-05 20:44:40 +0000, Scott said:
> On 05 Jan 2025 20:19:22 +0000 (GMT), Theo
> <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>> In uk.telecom.mobile Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 5 Jan 2025 17:47:44 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 5 Jan 2025 17:33:29 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 5 Jan 2025 16:45:14 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Pamela wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Wasn't there also a requirement for the battery to be user replaceable?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Not in effect for a couple of years, I think ...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://environment.ec.europa.eu/news/new-law-more-sustainable-circular-and-safe-batteries-enters-force-2023-08-17_en
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2027, though I can?t find an exact date. Not just phones either.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Electric vehicles?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don?t think so. Things like power tools, radios, toothbrushes etc. A
>>>>>> user replaceable EV battery could be quite a dangerous affair.
>>>>>
>>>>> It might improve the residual value though.
>>>>
>>>> Unlikely. Batteries are around £2500 per 10kWhr retail judging by the
>>>> cost of a house battery.
>>>
>>> Would it not allow an aftermarket for generic batteries instead of
>>> being bound by the OEM? I was offered a second hand Zoe at a very low
>>> price at one stage but when I realised the battery arrangements (lease
>>> from Renault) and the very low range of such a model I dismissed the
>>> idea very quickly.
>>
>> EV batteries weigh about 200kg. Consumers aren't going to be changing them
>> because they don't have the lifting gear (hydraulic lifts and scissor
>> tables). If you have gear unscrewing them from the bottom of the vehicle is
>> not complicated, although could be dangerous without safety precautions. In
>> no world are consumers going to be changing them like they change wiper
>> blades.
>>
>> Batteries are designed to fit the car so you need to swap in an OEM battery
>> - just like engines it may theoretically be possible to swap something else,
>> but it's a lot of work (mechanically, electrically and software). There is
>> no standard 1.6 engine that'll fit in every car, and batteries are similarly
>> bespoke.
>
> That puts paid to the idea of having a standard battery for all the
> cars and swapping them from underneath at the filling station using a
> mechanical arm as was suggested at one time :-)

There are already some battery pack swapping robot places for EV cars
and it can be done in five minutes or less, although it depends on the
car model, etc. and reportedly is expensive. Most of these places are
currently in China, but there are a few in other places (California has
a few Nio swap stations).

At one point there was the idea of having multiple smaller battery
packs that could be easily user swappable in the same simple "plug 'n'
play" way as many electric tools. It was also suggest the small battery
packs could be swapped at places like supermarkets and petrol stations
(deposit a flat battery, take a full one, and the flat battery is
recharged for another user). This idea hasn't been taken up by any
manufacturer yet.

Part of the problem is the cvar manufacturers all having their own
designs for the battery packs and how they are fitted. There would need
to be a standardisation before easy battery swapping became a real
possibility.

On 2025-01-05 21:44, Scott wrote:
> On 05 Jan 2025 20:19:22 +0000 (GMT), Theo
> <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> In uk.telecom.mobile Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 5 Jan 2025 17:47:44 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 5 Jan 2025 17:33:29 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 5 Jan 2025 16:45:14 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Pamela wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Wasn't there also a requirement for the battery to be user replaceable?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Not in effect for a couple of years, I think ...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://environment.ec.europa.eu/news/new-law-more-sustainable-circular-and-safe-batteries-enters-force-2023-08-17_en
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2027, though I can?t find an exact date. Not just phones either.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Electric vehicles?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don?t think so. Things like power tools, radios, toothbrushes etc. A user
>>>>>> replaceable EV battery could be quite a dangerous affair.
>>>>>
>>>>> It might improve the residual value though.
>>>>>
>>>> Unlikely. Batteries are around £2500 per 10kWhr retail judging by the cost
>>>> of a house battery.
>>>
>>> Would it not allow an aftermarket for generic batteries instead of
>>> being bound by the OEM? I was offered a second hand Zoe at a very low
>>> price at one stage but when I realised the battery arrangements (lease
>>> from Renault) and the very low range of such a model I dismissed the
>>> idea very quickly.
>>
>> EV batteries weigh about 200kg. Consumers aren't going to be changing them
>> because they don't have the lifting gear (hydraulic lifts and scissor
>> tables). If you have gear unscrewing them from the bottom of the vehicle is
>> not complicated, although could be dangerous without safety precautions. In
>> no world are consumers going to be changing them like they change wiper
>> blades.
>>
>> Batteries are designed to fit the car so you need to swap in an OEM battery
>> - just like engines it may theoretically be possible to swap something else,
>> but it's a lot of work (mechanically, electrically and software). There is
>> no standard 1.6 engine that'll fit in every car, and batteries are similarly
>> bespoke.
>>
> That puts paid to the idea of having a standard battery for all the
> cars and swapping them from underneath at the filling station using a
> mechanical arm as was suggested at one time :-)

No, because those cars and their batteries were designed for this method.

--
Cheers, Carlos.