badgolferman wrote on Fri, 27 Dec 2024 18:01:02 -0000 (UTC) :

>>Can other people on other platforms use Apple maps WITHOUT an Apple
>>ID?
>
> There seems to be an internet version available. However unlike Google
> Maps I don't see a way to include multiple stops.
>
> https://beta.maps.apple.com/

Hi badgolferman,

Thanks for responding normally, as we can converse like two humans should,
interact instead of having to play those silly games the Apple trolls play.

I keep around an iPad 10th generation WITHOUT an Apple ID just to test what
works and what doesn't work with the mothership - so I will test this out.

Note that Apple *required* the Internet just to "activate" that iPad, which
the Apple trolls (like Alan Baker) claim they did WITHOUT the Internet
(which no longer shocks me that they're that ignorant or that they lie).

On that tenth-generation iPad which has no Apple ID assigned to it:
1. I opened Apple Maps (which was in the "Other" folder by default)
2. Apple Maps first asked "Get Notified when Friends Share their ETAs"
(Yeah, right. I think I can "Dismiss" that one, huh?)
3. Then it popped up "Introducing Hikes and Custom Routes"
(But there's no button to dismiss that one - just "Continue".)
4. Now I am in Apple Maps where it says "Location Service is Off".

However, even without location services turned on Apple Maps can route:
From: 100 Main Street, Redwood City, CA 94063
To: 100 Main St, Fort Worth, TX 76102

Apple piously warned me "Getting There Safely, Be safe and pay attention to
your surroundings, Always observe posted signs and local laws", which, um,
I'm sitting in my office chair, so thank you Apple for worrying about me.

Below that is "Add Stop" with a big fat blue plus sign "(+)".
So I add this stop: 100 Main St, Comfort, TX 78013

It seems to have worked for me. But maybe I'm using a newer version of
Apple Maps than you're using (I'm on iOS 18.0 and it says 18.2 is ready).

If this were Android, I know how to get the version of any app (using
Muntashirakon) but I don't know how to get the version of this Maps app.

On iOS, how do we get the version of the Apple Maps app anyway?

On 2024-12-27 19:49, Andrew wrote:
> badgolferman wrote on Fri, 27 Dec 2024 17:55:50 -0000 (UTC) :
>
>> Thanks, I didn't know that!  But since I don't like the interface of
>> Apple Maps and don't use it, it's no surprise I haven't seen that.
>
> There are so many ways to do what badgolferman asked, all of which I've
> done myself, so I could write a book on how to do offline routing.
>
> Most people who recommend OSMAnd don't actually know anything about it.
>
> While OSMAnd+/OSMAnd~/OSMAnd (which I'll refer to just as "OSMAnd" here)
> can do offline routing, the public topo maps for Open Street Maps are
> horrendously inaccurate - compared to that of the free USGS topo maps.
>
> If you're in the middle of the mountains in the US, and biking or hiking,
> then you can't beat the accuracy of the USGS geoPDFs which can be routed on
> inside of the free Avenza or Paper Maps apps on both Android and iOS.

That's pointless to me. I live in Europe, no USGS maps here as far as I
know, and open street maps are very accurate here.

So do not use a general statement such as "Open Street Maps are
horrendously inaccurate".

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 2024-12-27 14:04, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2024-12-27 19:49, Andrew wrote:
>> badgolferman wrote on Fri, 27 Dec 2024 17:55:50 -0000 (UTC) :
>>
>>> Thanks, I didn't know that!  But since I don't like the interface of
>>> Apple Maps and don't use it, it's no surprise I haven't seen that.
>>
>> There are so many ways to do what badgolferman asked, all of which I've
>> done myself, so I could write a book on how to do offline routing.
>>
>> Most people who recommend OSMAnd don't actually know anything about it.
>>
>> While OSMAnd+/OSMAnd~/OSMAnd (which I'll refer to just as "OSMAnd" here)
>> can do offline routing, the public topo maps for Open Street Maps are
>> horrendously inaccurate - compared to that of the free USGS topo maps.
>>
>> If you're in the middle of the mountains in the US, and biking or hiking,
>> then you can't beat the accuracy of the USGS geoPDFs which can be
>> routed on
>> inside of the free Avenza or Paper Maps apps on both Android and iOS.
>
> That's pointless to me. I live in Europe, no USGS maps here as far as I
> know, and open street maps are very accurate here.
>
> So do not use a general statement such as "Open Street Maps are
> horrendously inaccurate".
Hey, hey, hey!

I claims to have a degree in microbiology, and everyone knows that makes
you an expert on mapping software.

;-)

Andrew <andys@nospam.com> wrote:
> badgolferman wrote on Fri, 27 Dec 2024 18:01:02 -0000 (UTC) :
>
>>> Can other people on other platforms use Apple maps WITHOUT an Apple
>>> ID?
>>
>> There seems to be an internet version available. However unlike Google
>> Maps I don't see a way to include multiple stops.
>>
>> https://beta.maps.apple.com/
>
> Hi badgolferman,
>
> Thanks for responding normally, as we can converse like two humans should,
> interact instead of having to play those silly games the Apple trolls play.
>
> I keep around an iPad 10th generation WITHOUT an Apple ID just to test what
> works and what doesn't work with the mothership - so I will test this out.
>
> Note that Apple *required* the Internet just to "activate" that iPad, which
> the Apple trolls (like Alan Baker) claim they did WITHOUT the Internet
> (which no longer shocks me that they're that ignorant or that they lie).
>
> On that tenth-generation iPad which has no Apple ID assigned to it:
> 1. I opened Apple Maps (which was in the "Other" folder by default)
> 2. Apple Maps first asked "Get Notified when Friends Share their ETAs"
> (Yeah, right. I think I can "Dismiss" that one, huh?)
> 3. Then it popped up "Introducing Hikes and Custom Routes"
> (But there's no button to dismiss that one - just "Continue".)
> 4. Now I am in Apple Maps where it says "Location Service is Off".
>
> However, even without location services turned on Apple Maps can route:
> From: 100 Main Street, Redwood City, CA 94063
> To: 100 Main St, Fort Worth, TX 76102
>
> Apple piously warned me "Getting There Safely, Be safe and pay attention to
> your surroundings, Always observe posted signs and local laws", which, um,
> I'm sitting in my office chair, so thank you Apple for worrying about me.
>
> Below that is "Add Stop" with a big fat blue plus sign "(+)".
> So I add this stop: 100 Main St, Comfort, TX 78013
>
> It seems to have worked for me. But maybe I'm using a newer version of
> Apple Maps than you're using (I'm on iOS 18.0 and it says 18.2 is ready).
>
> If this were Android, I know how to get the version of any app (using
> Muntashirakon) but I don't know how to get the version of this Maps app.
>
> On iOS, how do we get the version of the Apple Maps app anyway?
>

The link I provided was to the beta desktop version. You had asked if it
works on other platforms. I used Windows 10 and Google Chrome for that one.
I didn’t see a way to add stops on that version, but maybe I missed it.

On 2024-12-27 14:34, badgolferman wrote:
> Andrew <andys@nospam.com> wrote:
>> badgolferman wrote on Fri, 27 Dec 2024 18:01:02 -0000 (UTC) :
>>
>>>> Can other people on other platforms use Apple maps WITHOUT an Apple
>>>> ID?
>>>
>>> There seems to be an internet version available. However unlike Google
>>> Maps I don't see a way to include multiple stops.
>>>
>>> https://beta.maps.apple.com/
>>
>> Hi badgolferman,
>>
>> Thanks for responding normally, as we can converse like two humans should,
>> interact instead of having to play those silly games the Apple trolls play.
>>
>> I keep around an iPad 10th generation WITHOUT an Apple ID just to test what
>> works and what doesn't work with the mothership - so I will test this out.
>>
>> Note that Apple *required* the Internet just to "activate" that iPad, which
>> the Apple trolls (like Alan Baker) claim they did WITHOUT the Internet
>> (which no longer shocks me that they're that ignorant or that they lie).
>>
>> On that tenth-generation iPad which has no Apple ID assigned to it:
>> 1. I opened Apple Maps (which was in the "Other" folder by default)
>> 2. Apple Maps first asked "Get Notified when Friends Share their ETAs"
>> (Yeah, right. I think I can "Dismiss" that one, huh?)
>> 3. Then it popped up "Introducing Hikes and Custom Routes"
>> (But there's no button to dismiss that one - just "Continue".)
>> 4. Now I am in Apple Maps where it says "Location Service is Off".
>>
>> However, even without location services turned on Apple Maps can route:
>> From: 100 Main Street, Redwood City, CA 94063
>> To: 100 Main St, Fort Worth, TX 76102
>>
>> Apple piously warned me "Getting There Safely, Be safe and pay attention to
>> your surroundings, Always observe posted signs and local laws", which, um,
>> I'm sitting in my office chair, so thank you Apple for worrying about me.
>>
>> Below that is "Add Stop" with a big fat blue plus sign "(+)".
>> So I add this stop: 100 Main St, Comfort, TX 78013
>>
>> It seems to have worked for me. But maybe I'm using a newer version of
>> Apple Maps than you're using (I'm on iOS 18.0 and it says 18.2 is ready).
>>
>> If this were Android, I know how to get the version of any app (using
>> Muntashirakon) but I don't know how to get the version of this Maps app.
>>
>> On iOS, how do we get the version of the Apple Maps app anyway?
>>
>
> The link I provided was to the beta desktop version. You had asked if it
> works on other platforms. I used Windows 10 and Google Chrome for that one.
> I didn’t see a way to add stops on that version, but maybe I missed it.
>

You think that Arlen/Andrew actually read what you wrote!

How cute!

badgolferman wrote on Fri, 27 Dec 2024 22:34:57 -0000 (UTC) :

>> If this were Android, I know how to get the version of any app (using
>> Muntashirakon) but I don't know how to get the version of this Maps app.
>>
>> On iOS, how do we get the version of the Apple Maps app anyway?
>>
>
> The link I provided was to the beta desktop version. You had asked if it
> works on other platforms. I used Windows 10 and Google Chrome for that one.
> I didn�t see a way to add stops on that version, but maybe I missed it.

Well, I went to that link on my default Windows web browser and clicked on
"Directions" and then I entered the two locations to get directions for:
<https://beta.maps.apple.com/>
From: 100 Main Street, Redwood City, CA 94063
To: 100 Main St, Fort Worth, TX 76102

Then I hit "Now" and then "Apply" and it failed to do anything.
So it's a Beta for sure.
https://beta.maps.apple.com/?saddr=100+Main+St%2C+100+Main+St+Redwood+City%2C+CA+94063+United+States&dirflg=d

Changing the browser to SRWare Iron, it failed differently, saying:
Maps Your current browser isn't supported.
https://beta.maps.apple.com/unsupported
https://support.apple.com/en-us/120585
(See supported browsers.)

Apparently Apple coders are sophomoric (fancy that) and don't know how to
code anything (which, of course, I'm not surprised at since Apple sucks at
writing code that works on anything not on the Apple platform itself).

I don't have Chrome on any platform but I tried it with Firefox.
<https://beta.maps.apple.com/>
From: 100 Main Street, Redwood City, CA 94063
To: 100 Main St, Fort Worth, TX 76102
When I hit "Now" and then "Apply", it failed to work even on Firefox.

It takes only so much to get sick of Apple's sophomoric coding (their apps
always seem to have been written by high school kids) so I gave up.

Not only does it likely not add stops, it doesn't even work without them.
--
Almost every time I touch Apple software, it proves to be utter garbage.

On 2024-12-27 17:37, Andrew wrote:
> badgolferman wrote on Fri, 27 Dec 2024 22:34:57 -0000 (UTC) :
>
>>> If this were Android, I know how to get the version of any app (using
>>> Muntashirakon) but I don't know how to get the version of this Maps app.
>>>
>>> On iOS, how do we get the version of the Apple Maps app anyway?
>>>
>>
>> The link I provided was to the beta desktop version. You had asked if it
>> works on other platforms. I used Windows 10 and Google Chrome for that
>> one.
>> I didn�t see a way to add stops on that version, but maybe I missed it.
>
> Well, I went to that link on my default Windows web browser and clicked on
> "Directions" and then I entered the two locations to get directions for:
>  <https://beta.maps.apple.com/>
>  From: 100 Main Street, Redwood City, CA 94063  To: 100 Main St, Fort
> Worth, TX 76102
>
> Then I hit "Now" and then "Apply" and it failed to do anything.
> So it's a Beta for sure.
> https://beta.maps.apple.com/?
> saddr=100+Main+St%2C+100+Main+St+Redwood+City%2C+CA+94063+United+States&dirflg=d

You mean you deliberately used it incorrectly to get the result you wanted.

<https://beta.maps.apple.com/?daddr=32.756818%2C+-97.3330267&saddr=100+Main+St%2C+100+Main+St+Redwood+City%2C+CA+94063+United+States&dirflg=d>

>
> Changing the browser to SRWare Iron, it failed differently, saying:
> Maps Your current browser isn't supported.
> https://beta.maps.apple.com/unsupported
> https://support.apple.com/en-us/120585
> (See supported browsers.)
>
> Apparently Apple coders are sophomoric (fancy that) and don't know how to
> code anything (which, of course, I'm not surprised at since Apple sucks at
> writing code that works on anything not on the Apple platform itself).
>
> I don't have Chrome on any platform but I tried it with Firefox.
>  <https://beta.maps.apple.com/>
>  From: 100 Main Street, Redwood City, CA 94063  To: 100 Main St, Fort
> Worth, TX 76102
> When I hit "Now" and then "Apply", it failed to work even on Firefox.
>
> It takes only so much to get sick of Apple's sophomoric coding (their apps
> always seem to have been written by high school kids) so I gave up.
>
> Not only does it likely not add stops, it doesn't even work without them.

<https://beta.maps.apple.com/?daddr=32.756818%2C+-97.3330267&saddr=100+Main+St%2C+100+Main+St+Redwood+City%2C+CA+94063+United+States&dirflg=d>

Carlos E.R. wrote on Fri, 27 Dec 2024 23:04:48 +0100 :

>> If you're in the middle of the mountains in the US, and biking or hiking,
>> then you can't beat the accuracy of the USGS geoPDFs which can be routed on
>> inside of the free Avenza or Paper Maps apps on both Android and iOS.
>
> That's pointless to me. I live in Europe, no USGS maps here as far as I
> know, and open street maps are very accurate here.
>
> So do not use a general statement such as "Open Street Maps are
> horrendously inaccurate".

Hi Carlos,
I understand your point of view as OSMAnd is maybe the best you can get.

But here, in the states, we have far better free offline offroad mapping
and routing, not only in the USGS maps but there are very many services
which add their layers to the USGS maps (e.g., historical, plants, fires,
geology, etc.) such that the Open Street Maps are garbage in comparison.

Even so, badgolferman is on iOS (as far as I know) so he can't use OSMAnd
(as far as I am aware) so all the other advice applies to him on mapping.

Especially if he's going to be at a ski resort or at a government park.

Arno Welzel wrote on Tue, 24 Dec 2024 04:14:10 +0100 :

>> a. Buy a brand new iPhone & pop a valid known-working SIM card in it
>> b. DO NOT EVER LOG INTO ANY APPLE SERVER
>> c. Try to do something simple - anything - like make a phone call
>>
>> What do you think happens?
>
> The phone call works. BTDT

Nope. Try it. Buy a new iPhone. Don't initialize it. Tell us what happens.

Only Apple requires you to initialize on their mainframe servers, Arno.

Nobody else.
--
You can easily get around the Windows 11 requirements.

On 2024-12-27 18:13, Andrew wrote:
> Arno Welzel wrote on Tue, 24 Dec 2024 04:14:10 +0100 :
>
>>> a. Buy a brand new iPhone & pop a valid known-working SIM card in it
>>> b. DO NOT EVER LOG INTO ANY APPLE SERVER
>>> c. Try to do something simple - anything - like make a phone call
>>>
>>> What do you think happens?
>>
>> The phone call works. BTDT
>
> Nope. Try it. Buy a new iPhone. Don't initialize it. Tell us what happens.

Done.

It works without ever so much as creating an Apple Account.

>
> Only Apple requires you to initialize on their mainframe servers, Arno.
>
> Nobody else.

Andrew, 2024-12-27 19:42:

> Arno Welzel wrote on Thu, 26 Dec 2024 21:03:24 +0100 :
>
>>> Which is why 99.99% of iOS owners are connected to Apple's servers on the
>>> Internet 24/7/365. Every moment they're on the device. Apple tracks it all.
>>
>> Not only Apple. Microsoft and Google do this as well.
>
> Everything you claim, Arno, shows you do not understand how Android works.

Well - I've been developing software for Android for more than 10 years
now and one of my private projects is available on F-Droid and Google Play:

<https://arnowelzel.de/en/projects/periodical>

<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=de.arnowelzel.android.periodical>

<https://f-droid.org/packages/de.arnowelzel.android.periodical/>

I *know* how Android works.

> Specifically, you are unaware that Android does not require a Google
> Account set up on the phone - and the proof is that I don't have one.

Of course - but this is not the point! You *require* a Google account
for many apps, so it is completely pointless if Android itself does not
need this to be used at all.

> Why is it that I can do everything I need to do on Android without that
> Google Account set up on my phone - and you can't do anything without it?

Because I use apps which *require* a Google account. But I am willing to
learn how to use Google Play, Google Maps, Google Wallet, PayPal, Jelbi
and many others without a Google account.

> Seriously, Arno.
> Your statements prove you know absolutely nothing about Android.

And you still don't get my point.

> And no, I'm not rooted.

"Rooting" is a thing of the past. Nowadays it makes no sense to root a
device anyway in most cases. e/OS/ and LineageOS come without root
access - and this is good so!

[...]
>> Are you aware that you don't know anything at all?
>
> And yet, my (unrooted) Android works fine without a Google Account set up
> on it - & you can't even do that - so who is the one who knows nothing?

Well - setting up a device is just the first step. Most people do not
just want to setup their device but also install and use apps. And not
apps available on F-Droid but also apps from Google Play.

--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de

Andrew, 2024-12-27 19:19:

> Frank Slootweg wrote on 27 Dec 2024 14:14:18 GMT :
>
>> OsmAnd+ was my first and primary app. Used it a lot in rural/outback/
>> remote Australia, where there just isn't any Internet (other than
>> extremely expensive satellite Internet).
>>
>> Besides Google Maps and OsmAnd, there are several other offline
>> navigation apps, such as HERE WeGo and Sygic, some of them are also
>> available on 'totally useless' iPhones! :-)
>>
>> Other things (in addition to photos and navigation) to do with
>> Internet-less devices (iPhones and Andoid), in no particular order:
>>
>> - play music
>> - play/record videos
>> - play games
>> - read ebooks
>> - listen to FM radio (Android only)
>> - listen to podcasts
>> - work on 'Office' documents
>> - personal health, activity, sleep recording/analysis
>> - camping/campsite apps
>> - etc..
>
> There are many things an iOS or Android app can do without logging into a
> mothership mainframe server on the Internet (which murders your privacy).

Are there? You claimed all the time, that iOS is completely useless
without active internet connection.

> But this thread is about privacy and security and there's nothing less
> private than logging into the Apple walled garden mothership 24/7/365.
>
> *Apple's walled garden _murdered_ privacy*

As did Google and Microsoft.

So go ahead and create a fake account without personal information.

--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de

Alan, 2024-12-27 19:48:

> On 2024-12-27 10:19, Andrew wrote:
[...]
>> I suspect it's part of Apple's plan to hinder re-use on another device.
>
> So you mean "theft"?

Yes, he must refer to theft. Because re-using an iOS device is
absolutely no problem at all - if the previous owner unregistered the
device and thus made it possible for the new owner to set it up for his
own account.

--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de

Andrew, 2024-12-28 03:13:

> Arno Welzel wrote on Tue, 24 Dec 2024 04:14:10 +0100 :
>
>>> a. Buy a brand new iPhone & pop a valid known-working SIM card in it
>>> b. DO NOT EVER LOG INTO ANY APPLE SERVER
>>> c. Try to do something simple - anything - like make a phone call
>>>
>>> What do you think happens?
>>
>> The phone call works. BTDT
>
> Nope. Try it. Buy a new iPhone. Don't initialize it. Tell us what happens.

As I said - you can use it for phone calls. You only need to
"initialize" it when you want to use Apple services.

--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de

On 2024-12-28 02:44, Andrew wrote:
> Carlos E.R. wrote on Fri, 27 Dec 2024 23:04:48 +0100 :
>
>>> If you're in the middle of the mountains in the US, and biking
>>> or hiking, then you can't beat the accuracy of the USGS geoPDFs
>>> which can be routed on inside of the free Avenza or Paper Maps
>>> apps on both Android and iOS.
>>
>> That's pointless to me. I live in Europe, no USGS maps here as far
>> as I know, and open street maps are very accurate here.
>>
>> So do not use a general statement such as "Open Street Maps are
>> horrendously inaccurate".
>
> Hi Carlos, I understand your point of view as OSMAnd is maybe the
> best you can get.

I did not say that it is the best I can get. I do not know which is the
best possible one, not a thing I care about. Possibly it depends on what
exact information you need.

For example, TomTom uses a combination of their own maps and other
sources. There were news about they joining with open street maps, too.

For example, there are government maps. One of them caters to measuring
properties accurately. When you sell a property, the official script is
compared to that map, and that map information supersedes the script. So
it maps accurately properties within a meter.

https://www1.sedecatastro.gob.es/cartografia/mapa.aspx

And it is not the only map in existence. For example, here:
<https://www.ign.es/web/cbg-area-cartografia>
Some of them you have to pay for access.

And the military also have or had their own maps.

Around here, Open Street Maps are pretty good, and they are gratis. You
can not say a blanket statement that they are horrendous.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> wrote:
> Andrew, 2024-12-28 03:13:
>
> > Arno Welzel wrote on Tue, 24 Dec 2024 04:14:10 +0100 :
> >
> >>> a. Buy a brand new iPhone & pop a valid known-working SIM card in it
> >>> b. DO NOT EVER LOG INTO ANY APPLE SERVER
> >>> c. Try to do something simple - anything - like make a phone call
> >>>
> >>> What do you think happens?
> >>
> >> The phone call works. BTDT
> >
> > Nope. Try it. Buy a new iPhone. Don't initialize it. Tell us what happens.
>
> As I said - you can use it for phone calls. You only need to
> "initialize" it when you want to use Apple services.

Yes, of course one can use an iPhone for phone calls (and SMS/MMS)
without 'initializing' it with Apple (AppleID, etc.). If one couldn't,
there would be no point donating 'old' iPhones to people in third world
countries, etc..

Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> wrote:
[...]

> Of course - but this is not the point! You *require* a Google account
> for many apps, so it is completely pointless if Android itself does not
> need this to be used at all.

I know what you mean (see your quoted text below), but to be fair,
only can use quite a lot of apps - including several Google apps -
without a Google account. Considering the absurdity of this
non-discussion, I can't be bothered to check all my apps, but I'm hard
pressed to think of one or more of my apps which requires a Google
account.

Of course, I'm not so silly as to try to get all my apps from
non-Google app 'stores', so yes, I do have and use a Google account. But
my point is that I *could* do without one and the large majority of my
apps would be fully functional and even the Google apps (Chrome, Maps,
YouTube (,Google?) would be mostly functional.

[...]

Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> wrote:
> Andrew, 2024-12-27 19:19:
[...]

> > *Apple's walled garden _murdered_ privacy*
>
> As did Google and Microsoft.
>
> So go ahead and create a fake account without personal information.

Well, with some creativity it's still possible to create a Google
account without any real personal information. (Whether such an account
is all that useful for using on an Android smartphone/tablet is abother
matter.)

Arno Welzel wrote on Sat, 28 Dec 2024 12:44:21 +0100 :

>> Nope. Try it. Buy a new iPhone. Don't initialize it. Tell us what happens.
>
> As I said - you can use it for phone calls. You only need to
> "initialize" it when you want to use Apple services.

No. You're wrong, Arno. Even the Apple trolls don't know this.

You GUESSED what I said - you didn't UNDERSTAND what I said.
You simply GUESSED. And you guessed wrong, Arno.

Read what I had said. What I had said has NOTHING to do with an Apple ID.
Again, read what I just said. It has NOTHING to do with an Apple Account.

*I can tell you've _NEVER initialized_ an Apple device*, Arno.
That's clear.

You can NOT even make a phone call WITHOUT initializing (aka Activating)
the brand new (or factory reset) device on Apple servers on the Internet.

It's impossible.

And again, this has NOTHING to do with the Apple Account (aka Apple ID).
It's all about the device.

Only Apple does that.
Nobody else.

Apple murdered privacy.
--
The Win11 account is different & it can be worked around easily anyway.

Frank Slootweg wrote on 28 Dec 2024 14:34:35 GMT :

>> As I said - you can use it for phone calls. You only need to
>> "initialize" it when you want to use Apple services.
>
> Yes, of course one can use an iPhone for phone calls (and SMS/MMS)
> without 'initializing' it with Apple (AppleID, etc.). If one couldn't,
> there would be no point donating 'old' iPhones to people in third world
> countries, etc..

Frank,

You are wrong.

You are wrong because initializing/activating an iOS device has NOTHING
whatsoever to do with the Apple ID (aka Apple Account).

None of you appear to UNDERSTAND there is a difference.

Try this:
a. Buy a brand new iPhone
b. Try to use it (e.g., to make a phone call)

You can't.

First you have to "activate" (aka "initialize") it.
Then you can make phone calls.

Guess what you have to CONNECT to in order to activate/initialize it,
Frank?

Take a wild guess.

Only *after* you've initialized/activated it, can you even begin to make
the decision of whether or not you want to add an Apple Account to it.

No other consumer platform requires the Internet just to begin to work.

Apple murdered privacy.

On 2024-12-28 10:55, Andrew wrote:
> Arno Welzel wrote on Sat, 28 Dec 2024 12:44:21 +0100 :
>
>>> Nope. Try it. Buy a new iPhone. Don't initialize it. Tell us what
>>> happens.
>>
>> As I said - you can use it for phone calls. You only need to
>> "initialize" it when you want to use Apple services.
>
> No. You're wrong, Arno. Even the Apple trolls don't know this.
>
> You GUESSED what I said - you didn't UNDERSTAND what I said.
> You simply GUESSED. And you guessed wrong, Arno.
>
> Read what I had said. What I had said has NOTHING to do with an Apple ID.
> Again, read what I just said. It has NOTHING to do with an Apple Account.
>
> *I can tell you've _NEVER initialized_ an Apple device*, Arno.
> That's clear.
>
> You can NOT even make a phone call WITHOUT initializing (aka Activating)
> the brand new (or factory reset) device on Apple servers on the Internet.
>
> It's impossible.
>
> And again, this has NOTHING to do with the Apple Account (aka Apple ID).
> It's all about the device.
>
> Only Apple does that.
> Nobody else.
>
> Apple murdered privacy.

And now you've completely pivoted.

Your initial claim was that you had to be logged into an Apple account
"24/7/365".

On 2024-12-28 10:58, Andrew wrote:
> Frank Slootweg wrote on 28 Dec 2024 14:34:35 GMT :
>
>>> As I said - you can use it for phone calls. You only need to
>>> "initialize" it when you want to use Apple services.
>>
>>   Yes, of course one can use an iPhone for phone calls (and SMS/MMS)
>> without 'initializing' it with Apple (AppleID, etc.). If one couldn't,
>> there would be no point donating 'old' iPhones to people in third world
>> countries, etc..
>
> Frank,
>
> You are wrong.
>
> You are wrong because initializing/activating an iOS device has NOTHING
> whatsoever to do with the Apple ID (aka Apple Account).
>
> None of you appear to UNDERSTAND there is a difference.
>
> Try this:
> a. Buy a brand new iPhone
> b. Try to use it (e.g., to make a phone call)
>
> You can't.
>
> First you have to "activate" (aka "initialize") it.
> Then you can make phone calls.
>
> Guess what you have to CONNECT to in order to activate/initialize it,
> Frank?
>
> Take a wild guess.
>
> Only *after* you've initialized/activated it, can you even begin to make
> the decision of whether or not you want to add an Apple Account to it.
>
> No other consumer platform requires the Internet just to begin to work.
>
> Apple murdered privacy.

How does activation "murder privacy"?

Does activation ask for any personal information?

No.

Andrew, 2024-12-28 19:55:

> Arno Welzel wrote on Sat, 28 Dec 2024 12:44:21 +0100 :
>
>>> Nope. Try it. Buy a new iPhone. Don't initialize it. Tell us what happens.
>>
>> As I said - you can use it for phone calls. You only need to
>> "initialize" it when you want to use Apple services.
>
> No. You're wrong, Arno. Even the Apple trolls don't know this.
>
> You GUESSED what I said - you didn't UNDERSTAND what I said.
> You simply GUESSED. And you guessed wrong, Arno.

No, I tested it with a real device.

--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de

Frank Slootweg wrote on 28 Dec 2024 14:46:19 GMT :

>> Of course - but this is not the point! You *require* a Google account
>> for many apps, so it is completely pointless if Android itself does not
>> need this to be used at all.
>
> I know what you mean (see your quoted text below), but to be fair,
> only can use quite a lot of apps - including several Google apps -
> without a Google account.

Frank is correct here and it's even *better* because for every Google app
that does require an account, there's usually an open-source equivalent
that handles that account anonymously WITHOUT creating a Google Account on
the phone.

An example is NewPipe (which replaces the Google YouTube app).
Another example is Aurora (which replaces the Google Play Store app).

And, of course, you can check your "Google" mail account w/o the GMail app.

> Considering the absurdity of this
> non-discussion, I can't be bothered to check all my apps, but I'm hard
> pressed to think of one or more of my apps which requires a Google
> account.

The main reason for the "absurdity" of this discussion is that it's clear
neither you nor Arno understand how Android works (since an Android phone
does everything without a Google Account being set up on that phone).

Only one out of a million people understand how Android works, Frank.

> Of course, I'm not so silly as to try to get all my apps from
> non-Google app 'stores', so yes, I do have and use a Google account.

Frank - I don't know if you are intelligent enough to understand the next
statement, but I hope you are because your statement above is absurd.

The Aurora app installs the APK *from* the Google Play store repo.

Only one out of a million people are smart enough to understand that.

> But
> my point is that I *could* do without one and the large majority of my
> apps would be fully functional and even the Google apps (Chrome, Maps,
> YouTube (,Google?) would be mostly functional.

Neither you nor Arno have any idea whatsoever how Android works, Frank.

Every single app on the Google Play Store repository is available to the
Auroa app (which does NOT require a Google Account on the phone) Frank.

What's absurd is neither you nor Arno have any idea what an Android phone
can do WITHOUT having a Google Account on that phone.

I haven't had a Google Account on my Android phones for many years, Frank.
And I can do more than you can do with that phone, Frank.

What's absurd is you (and Arno) claiming to understand how Android works,
and then you say absurd things - which proves you don't know how it works.

Suffice to state that an Android phone does NOT need a Google Account on
that phone to do everything you need to do - if you have any intelligence.

But only one out of a million people are intelligent enough to know that.

Arno Welzel wrote on Sat, 28 Dec 2024 12:41:24 +0100 :

>>> I suspect it's part of Apple's plan to hinder re-use on another device.
>>
>> So you mean "theft"?
>
> Yes, he must refer to theft. Because re-using an iOS device is
> absolutely no problem at all - if the previous owner unregistered the
> device and thus made it possible for the new owner to set it up for his
> own account.

Arno's statement is so absurd - it shows he has zero iOS understanding.
Neither Arno nor the IQ 40 Alan Baker understands how APKs & IPAs work.

Even more absurd, for some reason, both think using free apps is "theft".
Which is a ridiculous thing for either Arno or the IQ 40 Alan Baker to say.

Using free apps is "theft" to Arno & to the IQ 40 Alan Baker.
Who is *that* stupid to think that using a free app is "theft"?

Only Arno. And the IQ 40 Alan Baker.
Nobody else would make such a patently preposterous claim.

HINT: Using free apps is not theft.

FACT about how Android free APKs work:
1. Download a free app APK from Google's App Store.
2. Try to use that free app on a device with a different Google ID.
3. It works.

FACT about how Android free APKs work:
1. Download a free app IPA from Apple's App Store.
2. Try to use that free app on a device with a different Apple ID.
3. You can't.
--
HINT: With Android, assuming the hardware is compatible, you can re-use a
free app APK on any Android phone on the planet. With iOS, you can only use
that free app IPA on a device with a single Apple ID (or family plan).