Arno Welzel wrote on Tue, 24 Dec 2024 13:37:10 +0100 :

> So - initialize the thing and THEN TURN OFF INTERNET. Can you still take
> pictures and listen to music or open the calendar and address book? Yes?
> Why?

It's good you finally understand that the iPhone can't even be activated
without the Internet so NOTHING WHATSOEVER WORKS without the Internet.

You're correct that once you've activated the iPhone on the Internet, then
(and only then) it can make calls WITHOUT needing the Internet.

Nobody said otherwise.

And yes, the dumb-terminal iPhone can take pictures WITHOUT the Internet.
Big deal.

So, without the Internet every second of the day, the iPhone still can take
pictures and make phone calls. Big deal.

But it can't do anything inside the walled garden that people love so much.
It's just a dumb terminal, Arno.

All I ever wanted was for you to understand what it is.
And what it is, is a dumb terminal.

Nothing that people love in the walled garden works without the Internet.

On 2024-12-26 11:36, Andrew wrote:
> Arno Welzel wrote on Tue, 24 Dec 2024 13:37:10 +0100 :
>
>> So - initialize the thing and THEN TURN OFF INTERNET. Can you still take
>> pictures and listen to music or open the calendar and address book? Yes?
>> Why?
>
> It's good you finally understand that the iPhone can't even be activated
> without the Internet so NOTHING WHATSOEVER WORKS without the Internet.

This is utterly false.

>
> You're correct that once you've activated the iPhone on the Internet, then
> (and only then) it can make calls WITHOUT needing the Internet.
>
> Nobody said otherwise.
>
> And yes, the dumb-terminal iPhone can take pictures WITHOUT the Internet.
> Big deal.
>
> So, without the Internet every second of the day, the iPhone still can take
> pictures and make phone calls. Big deal.

It can do much, much more.

In fact, without the internet, every app you have on the phone that
doesn't require network access as an inherent part of its function will
work just fine.

>
> But it can't do anything inside the walled garden that people love so much.
> It's just a dumb terminal, Arno.
>
> All I ever wanted was for you to understand what it is.
> And what it is, is a dumb terminal.
>
> Nothing that people love in the walled garden works without the Internet.

1. Can you activate an iPhone without an Apple Account?

Yes.

<https://www.aiseesoft.com/how-to/set-up-an-iphone-without-apple-id.html>

2. If you do set up an AppleID, do you need to be signed into your
account 24/7 to use your iPhone.

No.

On 2024-12-26 11:30, Andrew wrote:
> Arno Welzel wrote on Tue, 24 Dec 2024 13:35:46 +0100 :
>
>>> How is Apple's App Store gonna work without logging into an Apple
>>> server on
>>> the Internet?
>>
>> It wont't. But that was not the point. I talked about using the phone at
>> all. Even an iPhone does stop working COMPLETELY just because there is
>> no internet.
>
> Good. Because Apple iOS devices are dumb terminals attached to the "walled
> garden" which itself is based purely on Apple's servers on the Internet.

False.

>
> Which is why 99.99% of iOS owners are connected to Apple's servers on the
> Internet 24/7/365. Every moment they're on the device. Apple tracks it all.

False.

>
> No other common consumer operating system is designed as a dumb terminal.
> Just iOS.
>
> Worse, NOTHING on the iOS device works without Apple servers involved.

False.

>
> I wonder if you're aware that the iPhone or iPad can't even be activated
> without connecting to Apple's servers (which are clearly on the Internet).

False.

>
> Are you aware of that Arno?

Andrew, 2024-12-26 20:30:

> Arno Welzel wrote on Tue, 24 Dec 2024 13:35:46 +0100 :
>
>>> How is Apple's App Store gonna work without logging into an Apple server on
>>> the Internet?
>>
>> It wont't. But that was not the point. I talked about using the phone at
>> all. Even an iPhone does stop working COMPLETELY just because there is
>> no internet.
>
> Good. Because Apple iOS devices are dumb terminals attached to the "walled
> garden" which itself is based purely on Apple's servers on the Internet.
>
> Which is why 99.99% of iOS owners are connected to Apple's servers on the
> Internet 24/7/365. Every moment they're on the device. Apple tracks it all.

Not only Apple. Microsoft and Google do this as well.

> No other common consumer operating system is designed as a dumb terminal.
> Just iOS.

Wrong.

> Are you aware of that Arno?

Are you aware that you don't know anything at all?

--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de

Andrew, 2024-12-26 20:36:

> Arno Welzel wrote on Tue, 24 Dec 2024 13:37:10 +0100 :
>
>> So - initialize the thing and THEN TURN OFF INTERNET. Can you still take
>> pictures and listen to music or open the calendar and address book? Yes?
>> Why?
>
> It's good you finally understand that the iPhone can't even be activated
> without the Internet so NOTHING WHATSOEVER WORKS without the Internet.

So what?

--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de

Andrew <andys@nospam.com> wrote:
> Arno Welzel wrote on Tue, 24 Dec 2024 13:37:10 +0100 :
>
>> So - initialize the thing and THEN TURN OFF INTERNET. Can you still take
>> pictures and listen to music or open the calendar and address book? Yes?
>> Why?
>
> It's good you finally understand that the iPhone can't even be activated
> without the Internet so NOTHING WHATSOEVER WORKS without the Internet.
>
> You're correct that once you've activated the iPhone on the Internet, then
> (and only then) it can make calls WITHOUT needing the Internet.
>
> Nobody said otherwise.
>
> And yes, the dumb-terminal iPhone can take pictures WITHOUT the Internet.
> Big deal.
>
> So, without the Internet every second of the day, the iPhone still can take
> pictures and make phone calls. Big deal.
>
> But it can't do anything inside the walled garden that people love so much.
> It's just a dumb terminal, Arno.
>
> All I ever wanted was for you to understand what it is.
> And what it is, is a dumb terminal.
>
> Nothing that people love in the walled garden works without the Internet.
>

One thing I like about Google Maps is that you can download maps of a
region you plan to visit and use the app without any cellular connection.
Going to the ski resorts in West Virginia is a practice in being off the
grid.

badgolferman, 2024-12-27 12:56:

> Andrew <andys@nospam.com> wrote:
[...]
>> Nothing that people love in the walled garden works without the Internet.
>>
>
> One thing I like about Google Maps is that you can download maps of a
> region you plan to visit and use the app without any cellular connection.
> Going to the ski resorts in West Virginia is a practice in being off the
> grid.

You can do this with OSMAnd as well.

--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de

Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> wrote:
> badgolferman, 2024-12-27 12:56:
>
> > Andrew <andys@nospam.com> wrote:
> [...]
> >> Nothing that people love in the walled garden works without the Internet.
> >
> > One thing I like about Google Maps is that you can download maps of a
> > region you plan to visit and use the app without any cellular connection.
> > Going to the ski resorts in West Virginia is a practice in being off the
> > grid.
>
> You can do this with OSMAnd as well.

OsmAnd+ was my first and primary app. Used it a lot in rural/outback/
remote Australia, where there just isn't any Internet (other than
extremely expensive satellite Internet).

Besides Google Maps and OsmAnd, there are several other offline
navigation apps, such as HERE WeGo and Sygic, some of them are also
available on 'totally useless' iPhones! :-)

Other things (in addition to photos and navigation) to do with
Internet-less devices (iPhones and Andoid), in no particular order:

- play music
- play/record videos
- play games
- read ebooks
- listen to FM radio (Android only)
- listen to podcasts
- work on 'Office' documents
- personal health, activity, sleep recording/analysis
- camping/campsite apps
- etc..

Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> wrote:
> Andrew, 2024-12-26 20:36:
>
>> Arno Welzel wrote on Tue, 24 Dec 2024 13:37:10 +0100 :
>>
>>> So - initialize the thing and THEN TURN OFF INTERNET. Can you still take
>>> pictures and listen to music or open the calendar and address book? Yes?
>>> Why?
>>
>> It's good you finally understand that the iPhone can't even be activated
>> without the Internet so NOTHING WHATSOEVER WORKS without the Internet.
>
> So what?
>
>
>

Although I don’t share the same sentiments as Arlen, I can respect the
desire to remain anonymous and protect his identity as much as possible.
Still I wonder if this is worth the effort considering the lengths he goes
to in order to work around all the roadblocks in his way. Then there is the
lingering notion that the cellular provider will always know who and where
you are once you use their towers for a phone call or any data related
activity. In my mind you are never truly anonymous once connected to the
internet.

On 12/27/24 8:00 AM, badgolferman wrote:

>Then there is the
>lingering notion that the cellular provider will always know who and where
>you are once you use their towers for a phone call or any data related
>activity.

You don't even have to make a call or use data. Just have service. I can
locate the wife's iPhone using most any device's browser. For example I can
do it with this Amazon Fire tablet's browser in an emergency like when
she's late bringing home lunch...

AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
> On 12/27/24 8:00 AM, badgolferman wrote:
>
> >Then there is the
> >lingering notion that the cellular provider will always know who and where
> >you are once you use their towers for a phone call or any data related
> >activity.
>
> You don't even have to make a call or use data. Just have service. I can
> locate the wife's iPhone using most any device's browser. For example I can
> do it with this Amazon Fire tablet's browser in an emergency like when
> she's late bringing home lunch...

In that scenario, perhaps *you* don't use any (mobile) data, but *she*
does/did. Her location is not determined by cell/tower pinging, but by
her iPhone using the (mobile) Internet to supply her location.

But as badgolferman mentioned, the mobile *provider* - and hence law
enforcement, etc. - will/can know the location of any phone which is in
range and not in Airplane mode, even if the phone does not make/receive
a voice call.

On 2024-12-27 03:56, badgolferman wrote:
> Andrew <andys@nospam.com> wrote:
>> Arno Welzel wrote on Tue, 24 Dec 2024 13:37:10 +0100 :
>>
>>> So - initialize the thing and THEN TURN OFF INTERNET. Can you still take
>>> pictures and listen to music or open the calendar and address book? Yes?
>>> Why?
>>
>> It's good you finally understand that the iPhone can't even be activated
>> without the Internet so NOTHING WHATSOEVER WORKS without the Internet.
>>
>> You're correct that once you've activated the iPhone on the Internet, then
>> (and only then) it can make calls WITHOUT needing the Internet.
>>
>> Nobody said otherwise.
>>
>> And yes, the dumb-terminal iPhone can take pictures WITHOUT the Internet.
>> Big deal.
>>
>> So, without the Internet every second of the day, the iPhone still can take
>> pictures and make phone calls. Big deal.
>>
>> But it can't do anything inside the walled garden that people love so much.
>> It's just a dumb terminal, Arno.
>>
>> All I ever wanted was for you to understand what it is.
>> And what it is, is a dumb terminal.
>>
>> Nothing that people love in the walled garden works without the Internet.
>>
>
> One thing I like about Google Maps is that you can download maps of a
> region you plan to visit and use the app without any cellular connection.
> Going to the ski resorts in West Virginia is a practice in being off the
> grid.
>

So just like Maps on iOS...

<https://support.apple.com/en-ca/105084>

badgolferman wrote on Fri, 27 Dec 2024 11:56:55 -0000 (UTC) :

>> Nothing that people love in the walled garden works without the Internet.
>>
>
> One thing I like about Google Maps is that you can download maps of a
> region you plan to visit and use the app without any cellular connection.
> Going to the ski resorts in West Virginia is a practice in being off the
> grid.

Hi badgolferman,

I can converse differently with you than with the Apple trolls, where I'd
note that Google Maps is likely not considered to be part of the fabled
Apple walled garden (which, itself, requires logging into Apple servers).

I'm not even sure if I'd consider Apple Maps to be in the walled garden.

Is it?

Can other people on other platforms use Apple maps WITHOUT an Apple ID?

Alan wrote:

>On 2024-12-27 03:56, badgolferman wrote:
>>Andrew <andys@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>Arno Welzel wrote on Tue, 24 Dec 2024 13:37:10 +0100 :
>>>
>>>>So - initialize the thing and THEN TURN OFF INTERNET. Can you
>>>>still take pictures and listen to music or open the calendar
>>>>and address book? Yes? Why?
>>>
>>>It's good you finally understand that the iPhone can't even be
>>>activated without the Internet so NOTHING WHATSOEVER WORKS
>>>without the Internet.
>>>
>>>You're correct that once you've activated the iPhone on the
>>>Internet, then (and only then) it can make calls WITHOUT needing
>>>the Internet.
>>>
>>>Nobody said otherwise.
>>>
>>>And yes, the dumb-terminal iPhone can take pictures WITHOUT the
>>>Internet. Big deal.
>>>
>>>So, without the Internet every second of the day, the iPhone
>>>still can take pictures and make phone calls. Big deal.
>>>
>>>But it can't do anything inside the walled garden that people
>>>love so much. It's just a dumb terminal, Arno.
>>>
>>>All I ever wanted was for you to understand what it is.
>>>And what it is, is a dumb terminal.
>>>
>>>Nothing that people love in the walled garden works without the
>>>Internet.
>>>
>>
>>One thing I like about Google Maps is that you can download maps of
>>a region you plan to visit and use the app without any cellular
>>connection. Going to the ski resorts in West Virginia is a
>>practice in being off the grid.
>>
>
>So just like Maps on iOS...
>
><https://support.apple.com/en-ca/105084>

Thanks, I didn't know that! But since I don't like the interface of
Apple Maps and don't use it, it's no surprise I haven't seen that.

Andrew wrote:

>badgolferman wrote on Fri, 27 Dec 2024 11:56:55 -0000 (UTC) :
>
>>>Nothing that people love in the walled garden works without the
>>>Internet.
>>>
>>
>>One thing I like about Google Maps is that you can download maps of
>>a region you plan to visit and use the app without any cellular
>>connection. Going to the ski resorts in West Virginia is a
>>practice in being off the grid.
>
>Hi badgolferman,
>
>I can converse differently with you than with the Apple trolls, where
>I'd note that Google Maps is likely not considered to be part of the
>fabled Apple walled garden (which, itself, requires logging into
>Apple servers).
>
>I'm not even sure if I'd consider Apple Maps to be in the walled
>garden.
>
>Is it?
>
>Can other people on other platforms use Apple maps WITHOUT an Apple
>ID?

There seems to be an internet version available. However unlike Google
Maps I don't see a way to include multiple stops.

https://beta.maps.apple.com/

Frank Slootweg wrote on 27 Dec 2024 14:14:18 GMT :

> OsmAnd+ was my first and primary app. Used it a lot in rural/outback/
> remote Australia, where there just isn't any Internet (other than
> extremely expensive satellite Internet).
>
> Besides Google Maps and OsmAnd, there are several other offline
> navigation apps, such as HERE WeGo and Sygic, some of them are also
> available on 'totally useless' iPhones! :-)
>
> Other things (in addition to photos and navigation) to do with
> Internet-less devices (iPhones and Andoid), in no particular order:
>
> - play music
> - play/record videos
> - play games
> - read ebooks
> - listen to FM radio (Android only)
> - listen to podcasts
> - work on 'Office' documents
> - personal health, activity, sleep recording/analysis
> - camping/campsite apps
> - etc..

There are many things an iOS or Android app can do without logging into a
mothership mainframe server on the Internet (which murders your privacy).

But this thread is about privacy and security and there's nothing less
private than logging into the Apple walled garden mothership 24/7/365.

*Apple's walled garden _murdered_ privacy*

Apple tracks *everything* you do on the walled garden as a result, where
most Android users are likely clueless Apple inserts your Apple ID into
every app - even free apps! - you download - which even Google doesn't do.

Why does Apple insert your Apple ID into every (even free) app you install?
I don't know why.

I suspect it's part of Apple's plan to hinder re-use on another device.

Since Android & Apple users are involved in this conversation, the Apple
users are perhaps clueless that an Android free app can be installed on any
Android device in the world (assuming the hardware is compatible).

It's the same with EVERY operating system other than Apple's where only
Apple prevents that free app from being installed on any other device
unless - yes - you guessed it - unless it has the very same Apple ID.
--
There are minor exceptions for "family sharing" but it's all a restriction
inside the walled garden because Apple firmly controls every single app.

Frank Slootweg wrote on 27 Dec 2024 16:19:15 GMT :

>>>Then there is the
>>>lingering notion that the cellular provider will always know who and where
>>>you are once you use their towers for a phone call or any data related
>>>activity.
>>
>> You don't even have to make a call or use data. Just have service. I can
>> locate the wife's iPhone using most any device's browser. For example I can
>> do it with this Amazon Fire tablet's browser in an emergency like when
>> she's late bringing home lunch...
>
> In that scenario, perhaps *you* don't use any (mobile) data, but *she*
> does/did. Her location is not determined by cell/tower pinging, but by
> her iPhone using the (mobile) Internet to supply her location.
>
> But as badgolferman mentioned, the mobile *provider* - and hence law
> enforcement, etc. - will/can know the location of any phone which is in
> range and not in Airplane mode, even if the phone does not make/receive
> a voice call.

The fact the carrier knows who you are doesn't mean you have to then log
into every mothership server on the planet because you feel you're doomed.

I happen to have an undergrad degree in microbiology; most people don't.
Hence, I know a LOT about keeping myself clean; which most people don't.
As a result, I know it's impossible to be sterile - but - it's eminently
possible to keep myself clean(er) & free(er) of disease bearing germs.

The fact is I know a *lot* about cleanliness so I can keep myself cleaner
than most people (since I'm aware of the pitfalls - which I then avoid).

In contrast, most people, since they're clueless, are fantastically filthy.
They have no idea of anything. They don't know a bacteria from a virus.
They are ignorant - and hence - they claim things which are dead wrong.

People who are ignorant of microbiology - should not be chastising those
who happen to know a lot more than they ever will know about microbiology.

Same thing here on privacy - which is the topic of this thread after all.
Change the story above to privacy and it's the same thing.

A. I know a lot about privacy; most people don't.
B. I keep my actions on the Internet private as I can; most people can't.
C. That doesn't make me wrong.

It just means I am more private than they are.

For someone to talk about someone seeking privacy with disdain is no
different than that same clueless person talking about someone seeking to
keep his hands and body clean due to their own ignorance of the topic.

People who are ignorant of privacy - should not be chastising those who
happen to know a lot more about privacy than they ever will know about it.

Anyone who says they can be 100% private/anonymous on a phone is wrong.
But anyone who says you can't be more private/anonymous is also wrong.

The fact the carrier knows who you are doesn't mean you have to then log
into every mothership server on the planet because you feel you're doomed.

On 2024-12-27 09:34, Andrew wrote:
> badgolferman wrote on Fri, 27 Dec 2024 11:56:55 -0000 (UTC) :
>
>>> Nothing that people love in the walled garden works without the
>>> Internet.
>>>
>>
>> One thing I like about Google Maps is that you can download maps of a
>> region you plan to visit and use the app without any cellular connection.
>> Going to the ski resorts in West Virginia is a practice in being off the
>> grid.
>
> Hi badgolferman,
>
> I can converse differently with you than with the Apple trolls, where I'd
> note that Google Maps is likely not considered to be part of the fabled
> Apple walled garden (which, itself, requires logging into Apple servers).
>
> I'm not even sure if I'd consider Apple Maps to be in the walled garden.
>
> Is it?
>
> Can other people on other platforms use Apple maps WITHOUT an Apple ID?

I thought you said you had iOS devices, Arlen.

Why don't you just try it and report?

Arno Welzel wrote on Thu, 26 Dec 2024 21:03:24 +0100 :

>> Which is why 99.99% of iOS owners are connected to Apple's servers on the
>> Internet 24/7/365. Every moment they're on the device. Apple tracks it all.
>
> Not only Apple. Microsoft and Google do this as well.

Everything you claim, Arno, shows you do not understand how Android works.

Specifically, you are unaware that Android does not require a Google
Account set up on the phone - and the proof is that I don't have one.

Why is it that I can do everything I need to do on Android without that
Google Account set up on my phone - and you can't do anything without it?

Seriously, Arno.
Your statements prove you know absolutely nothing about Android.

And no, I'm not rooted.

>> No other common consumer operating system is designed as a dumb terminal.
>> Just iOS.
>
> Wrong.

Only iOS requires you to activate the device with Apple's mothership
servers.

That you're not aware of that fact means you know nothing about iOS either.

>> Are you aware of that Arno?
>
> Are you aware that you don't know anything at all?

And yet, my (unrooted) Android works fine without a Google Account set up
on it - & you can't even do that - so who is the one who knows nothing?

On 2024-12-27 10:01, badgolferman wrote:
> Andrew wrote:
>
>> badgolferman wrote on Fri, 27 Dec 2024 11:56:55 -0000 (UTC) :
>>
>>>> Nothing that people love in the walled garden works without the
>>>> Internet.
>>>>
>>>
>>> One thing I like about Google Maps is that you can download maps of
>>> a region you plan to visit and use the app without any cellular
>>> connection. Going to the ski resorts in West Virginia is a
>>> practice in being off the grid.
>>
>> Hi badgolferman,
>>
>> I can converse differently with you than with the Apple trolls, where
>> I'd note that Google Maps is likely not considered to be part of the
>> fabled Apple walled garden (which, itself, requires logging into
>> Apple servers).
>>
>> I'm not even sure if I'd consider Apple Maps to be in the walled
>> garden.
>>
>> Is it?
>>
>> Can other people on other platforms use Apple maps WITHOUT an Apple
>> ID?
>
> There seems to be an internet version available. However unlike Google
> Maps I don't see a way to include multiple stops.
>
> https://beta.maps.apple.com/
>
>

And yet:

1. You can use Apple Maps on iOS without signing in, so I don't know why
you'd use what is clearly a beta web version.

2. iOS Maps allows you to include multiple stops.

On 2024-12-27 10:19, Andrew wrote:
> Frank Slootweg wrote on 27 Dec 2024 14:14:18 GMT :
>
>>   OsmAnd+ was my first and primary app. Used it a lot in rural/outback/
>> remote Australia, where there just isn't any Internet (other than
>> extremely expensive satellite Internet).
>>
>>   Besides Google Maps and OsmAnd, there are several other offline
>> navigation apps, such as HERE WeGo and Sygic, some of them are also
>> available on 'totally useless' iPhones! :-)
>>
>>   Other things (in addition to photos and navigation) to do with
>> Internet-less devices (iPhones and Andoid), in no particular order:
>>
>> - play music
>> - play/record videos
>> - play games
>> - read ebooks
>> - listen to FM radio (Android only)
>> - listen to podcasts
>> - work on 'Office' documents
>> - personal health, activity, sleep recording/analysis
>> - camping/campsite apps
>> - etc..
>
> There are many things an iOS or Android app can do without logging into a
> mothership mainframe server on the Internet (which murders your privacy).

Yes. That's true.

>
> But this thread is about privacy and security and there's nothing less
> private than logging into the Apple walled garden mothership 24/7/365.
>
>   *Apple's walled garden _murdered_ privacy*

Except you don't have to be logged in 24/7/(and there's no need to
mention both "7" and "365").

>
> Apple tracks *everything* you do on the walled garden as a result, where
> most Android users are likely clueless Apple inserts your Apple ID into
> every app - even free apps! - you download - which even Google doesn't do.

Why do you care?

>
> Why does Apple insert your Apple ID into every (even free) app you install?
> I don't know why.
>
> I suspect it's part of Apple's plan to hinder re-use on another device.

So you mean "theft"?

>
> Since Android & Apple users are involved in this conversation, the Apple
> users are perhaps clueless that an Android free app can be installed on any
> Android device in the world (assuming the hardware is compatible).
>
> It's the same with EVERY operating system other than Apple's where only
> Apple prevents that free app from being installed on any other device
> unless - yes - you guessed it - unless it has the very same Apple ID.

If it's free, why do you NEED to copy it from one app to another?

badgolferman wrote on Fri, 27 Dec 2024 17:55:50 -0000 (UTC) :

> Thanks, I didn't know that! But since I don't like the interface of
> Apple Maps and don't use it, it's no surprise I haven't seen that.

There are so many ways to do what badgolferman asked, all of which I've
done myself, so I could write a book on how to do offline routing.

Most people who recommend OSMAnd don't actually know anything about it.

While OSMAnd+/OSMAnd~/OSMAnd (which I'll refer to just as "OSMAnd" here)
can do offline routing, the public topo maps for Open Street Maps are
horrendously inaccurate - compared to that of the free USGS topo maps.

If you're in the middle of the mountains in the US, and biking or hiking,
then you can't beat the accuracy of the USGS geoPDFs which can be routed on
inside of the free Avenza or Paper Maps apps on both Android and iOS.

However, the address lookup for OSMAnd stinks compared to that of Google's
online lookup - where I've written entire tutorials on how to solve that.

Yet, the walking instructions to get from one building to another in large
complexes in OSMAnd is, in my experience, way better than anything out
there. So there are times when OSMAnd is good; and times when it's not.

Most people don't know any of this though, as where OSMAnd really sucks is
in the parks and ski resorts - which I think badgolferman had mentioned.

For parks and ski resorts, every US state & national park has a geoPDF
which can be read in apps which I've already discussed many times, so in
the USA, there's no excuse NOT to have perfect routing inside any park.

I've written entire threads on this topic, so suffice to say you load a
single free app and it has every US federal, state & local map in it.

If someone recommends OSMAnd and yet they're unaware of the USA USGS topo
maps and Avenza/PaperMaps and the state/park maps - then they are clueless.
--
Note for those on iOS, everything mentioned above works on both platforms,
except for OSMAnd (as far as I'm aware there is no OSMAnd app for iOS).

On 2024-12-27 10:42, Andrew wrote:
> Arno Welzel wrote on Thu, 26 Dec 2024 21:03:24 +0100 :
>
>>> Which is why 99.99% of iOS owners are connected to Apple's servers on
>>> the
>>> Internet 24/7/365. Every moment they're on the device. Apple tracks
>>> it all.
>>
>> Not only Apple. Microsoft and Google do this as well.
>
> Everything you claim, Arno, shows you do not understand how Android works.
>
> Specifically, you are unaware that Android does not require a Google
> Account set up on the phone - and the proof is that I don't have one.

And Apple officially requires a very minimal AppleID...

....which could contain pretty much no personal information about you.

>
> Why is it that I can do everything I need to do on Android without that
> Google Account set up on my phone - and you can't do anything without it?
>
> Seriously, Arno.
> Your statements prove you know absolutely nothing about Android.
>
> And no, I'm not rooted.
>>> No other common consumer operating system is designed as a dumb
>>> terminal.
>>> Just iOS.
>>
>> Wrong.
>
> Only iOS requires you to activate the device with Apple's mothership
> servers.
> That you're not aware of that fact means you know nothing about iOS either.

But you can create an absolutely minimal AppleID to do that.

On 2024-12-27 10:32, Andrew wrote:
> Frank Slootweg wrote on 27 Dec 2024 16:19:15 GMT :
>
>>>> Then there is the
>>>> lingering notion that the cellular provider will always know who and
>>>> where
>>>> you are once you use their towers for a phone call or any data related
>>>> activity.
>>>
>>> You don't even have to make a call or use data. Just have service. I can
>>>  locate the wife's iPhone using most any device's browser. For
>>> example I can
>>>  do it with this Amazon Fire tablet's browser in an emergency like when
>>>  she's late bringing home lunch...
>>
>>   In that scenario, perhaps *you* don't use any (mobile) data, but *she*
>> does/did. Her location is not determined by cell/tower pinging, but by
>> her iPhone using the (mobile) Internet to supply her location.
>>
>>   But as badgolferman mentioned, the mobile *provider* -  and hence law
>> enforcement, etc. - will/can know the location of any phone which is in
>> range and not in Airplane mode, even if the phone does not make/receive
>> a voice call.
>
> The fact the carrier knows who you are doesn't mean you have to then log
> into every mothership server on the planet because you feel you're doomed.
>
> I happen to have an undergrad degree in microbiology; most people don't.
> Hence, I know a LOT about keeping myself clean; which most people don't.
> As a result, I know it's impossible to be sterile - but - it's eminently
> possible to keep myself clean(er) & free(er) of disease bearing germs.
>
> The fact is I know a *lot* about cleanliness so I can keep myself cleaner
> than most people (since I'm aware of the pitfalls - which I then avoid).
>
> In contrast, most people, since they're clueless, are fantastically filthy.
> They have no idea of anything. They don't know a bacteria from a virus.
> They are ignorant - and hence - they claim things which are dead wrong.
>
> People who are ignorant of microbiology - should not be chastising those
> who happen to know a lot more than they ever will know about microbiology.
>
> Same thing here on privacy - which is the topic of this thread after all.
> Change the story above to privacy and it's the same thing.
>
> A. I know a lot about privacy; most people don't.
> B. I keep my actions on the Internet private as I can; most people can't.
> C. That doesn't make me wrong.
> It just means I am more private than they are.

So you justify your knowledge of cleanliness with an undergrad degree in
microbiology...

....and then just declare yourself an expert on privacy.

>
> For someone to talk about someone seeking privacy with disdain is no
> different than that same clueless person talking about someone seeking to
> keep his hands and body clean due to their own ignorance of the topic.
>
> People who are ignorant of privacy - should not be chastising those who
> happen to know a lot more about privacy than they ever will know about it.
>
> Anyone who says they can be 100% private/anonymous on a phone is wrong.
> But anyone who says you can't be more private/anonymous is also wrong.
>
> The fact the carrier knows who you are doesn't mean you have to then log
> into every mothership server on the planet because you feel you're doomed.

And anyone who says (redundantly) that you have to be logged into your
AppleID (now officially "Apple Account") "24/7/365"...

....doesn't have a clue about the facts.

On 2024-12-21 13:04, Andrew wrote:
> Arno Welzel wrote on Sat, 21 Dec 2024 17:05:12 +0100 :
>
>>> How can you send and receive group facetime messages to and from other
>>> Apple users without logging into Apple's messaging servers on the
>>> Internet?
>>
>> Is "send and receive group facetime messages" neccessary to do phone
>> calls, taking pictures or listening to music stored on the device?
>
> Arno,
>
> Please tell all of us how you can do *anything* on the iOS device *without*
> logging into the Internet to *create* an Apple account on Apple's servers.
Here are the FACTS.

I just took my iPad (after making sure it was backed up of course) and
erased it.

Then I set it up from scratch.

I was asked if I wanted to use my AppleID, or create a new one...

....or continue without one.

I chose the latter.

The setup process completed and I have a perfectly functional iPad
without any AppleID.

Calendar
Photos
Camera
Contacts
Clock
Maps
Home
Notes
Reminders
Stocks
News
Books
Podcasts
Photo Booth
Voice Memos

These all work without an AppleID.

So what doesn't work with logging into an Apple Account (new name of an
"AppleID")?

FaceTime
iTunes Store
App Store
Find iPhone
Find Friends
TV

So there you go.

Yes: you'd need to sign into an Apple Account to download additional
apps, but you don't need to STAY signed in to use those apps.