Andrew, 2024-12-21 22:14:

[...]
> a. Buy a brand new iPhone & pop a valid known-working SIM card in it
> b. DO NOT EVER LOG INTO ANY APPLE SERVER
> c. Try to do something simple - anything - like make a phone call
>
> What do you think happens?

The phone call works. BTDT

--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de

Jörg Lorenz, 2024-12-22 09:10:

> On 22.12.24 08:59, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>> On 21.12.24 17:13, Arno Welzel wrote:
>>> Jörg Lorenz, 2024-12-21 08:53:
>>>
>>>> On 18.12.24 09:15, Alan wrote:
>>>>> On 2024-12-17 23:22, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>>>> No. Proprietary and encryption are NOT a contradiction.
>>>>>
>>>>> Don't argue from false positions.
>>>>
>>>> You do not understand the concept of asymmetric secure end-to-end
>>>> encryption. Those who own the service provide the encryption? Seriously?
>>>> Naive to the max.
>>>
>>> You know the meaning of end-to-end-encryption?
>>
>> Very stupid question. In this case it is a Zero-Trust issue.
>
> In the developed world are not many encryption-users that would trust
> either Google or Microsoft (there are more). It is not advisable to use
> an encryption chain where one commercial company has the control over
> the chain. Particularly when the company is located/headquartered in
> Trumpistan.
>
> You know what a "Masterkey" or a "Backdoor" is?

So you just don't believe, that RCS uses end-to-end-encryption in
Android. Why didn't you tell this in the beginning.

--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de

Jörg Lorenz, 2024-12-22 16:58:

> On 22.12.24 16:50, s|b wrote:
>> On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 00:35:16 +0100, Arno Welzel wrote:
>>
>>> On the other hand - messengers with end-to-end-encryption for iOS and
>>> Android exist.
>>
>> <https://signal.org/>
>
> Signal and Threema: https://threema.ch/en
>
> Threema is the only messenger being accepted for public institutions in
> Switzerland. Particularly for law enforcement, military use and public
> education.

Of course - Threema is provided by a Swiss company.

--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de

Arno Welzel wrote on Tue, 24 Dec 2024 04:01:12 +0100 :

>> Messages is compatible with any platform that sends and receives SMS
>> messages.
>
> Yes, it is able to send and receive SMS - nothing else. In this meaning,
> iPhones are compatible to nearly every other computer or phone in the
> world, since some kind of data exchange or phone calls is mostly possible.

Hi Arno,

Bear in mind the guy you're conversing with, Alan Baker, is a moron.

He has an IQ of about 40 so he loves to argue about everything for fun.

Note that it used to be there is no iPhone in the world which can be
initialized without connecting to the Internet. It's impossible.
And yet, Alan Baker claims he did the impossible.

Just as he claims to teach auto racing, Alan Baker doesn't know the first
thing about racing. He claims to own bimmers and he doesn't know teh most
basic of the simplest things about bimmers.

Alan Baker is an IQ 40 moron in everything.

As for the more recent iPhones, if they have an eSIM and if it's an iPhone
14 or greater, only after that can someone initialize it WITHOUT the
Internet. But all iPhones prior to the 14 *require* the Internet to
initialize.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=can+you+initialize+a+brand+new+iphone+without+internet>
No other operating system on the planet requires the Internet just to use
the phone. Just Apple.

The iPhone is nothing more than a dumb terminal without the Internet.
It can't even make phone calls.

Arno Welzel wrote on Tue, 24 Dec 2024 04:12:03 +0100 :

>> I even thought you knew more about Android than I do, Arno.
>> But I must have been wrong.
>
> No, you just don't tell what you *REALLY* mean.
>
> If you want to express "one needs to create an Apple account to use an
> iPhone" than say it! And don't say, that an iPhone has to PHYSICALLY
> CONNECTED to the internet all the time!

How is the Apple messaging going to work among other Apple users (other
than plain jane sms) without logging into an Apple server on the Internet?

How is Apple's facetime going to work without logging into an Apple server
on the Internet?

How is Apple's App Store gonna work without logging into an Apple server on
the Internet?

If you don't log into Apple servers, Apple will brick your account, Arno.
(Ask me how I know this).

And then you have to visit the Apple store with your government ID just to
get Apple to let you log back in (when you had never ever logged out!).

Only Apple requires you to log into their servers to use YOUR device.
Nobody else.

Just Apple.

How is an iPhone even going to be initialized with the Internet Arno?
(Only after iPhone 14 and even then only with an eSIM can you initialize an
iPhone WITHOUT the Internet Arno - and even then - it's over the cellular
network).

The iPhone is a completely brain-dead dumb terminal if the user doesn't log
into Apple servers every moment of every day of the rest of their lives.

Apple designed the iPhone as a dumb terminal.
No other operating system is anywhere near as brain dead as iOS is.

Arno Welzel wrote on Tue, 24 Dec 2024 04:12:48 +0100 :

>> Please tell all of us how you can do *anything* on the iOS device *without*
>> logging into the Internet to *create* an Apple account on Apple's servers.
>
> I am not talking about "logging in" anywhere!
>
> I talk about ACTIVE NETWORK CONNECTION!

Please run this search and tell us what the results are when you do...
*how to activate brand new iphone 13 without internet*

Here's a search link: Just click on it and tell us what you learned:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=how+to+activate+brand+new+iphone+13+without+internet>

Now try that with an iPhone 14 but change the search a teeny tiny bit...
<https://www.google.com/search?q=how+to+activate+brand+new+iphone+14+without+esim+without+internet>

What did you learn?

HINT: The iPhone can't even be activated without the Internet!

On 24.12.24 04:16, Arno Welzel wrote:
> Jörg Lorenz, 2024-12-22 16:58:
>
>> On 22.12.24 16:50, s|b wrote:
>>> On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 00:35:16 +0100, Arno Welzel wrote:
>>>
>>>> On the other hand - messengers with end-to-end-encryption for iOS and
>>>> Android exist.
>>>
>>> <https://signal.org/>
>>
>> Signal and Threema: https://threema.ch/en
>>
>> Threema is the only messenger being accepted for public institutions in
>> Switzerland. Particularly for law enforcement, military use and public
>> education.
>
> Of course - Threema is provided by a Swiss company.

Idiot. Merry Christmas.

--
"Roma locuta, causa finita." (Augustinus)

On 2024-12-23 19:21, Andrew wrote:
> Arno Welzel wrote on Tue, 24 Dec 2024 04:01:12 +0100 :
>
>>> Messages is compatible with any platform that sends and receives SMS
>>> messages.
>>
>> Yes, it is able to send and receive SMS - nothing else. In this meaning,
>> iPhones are compatible to nearly every other computer or phone in the
>> world, since some kind of data exchange or phone calls is mostly
>> possible.
>
> Hi Arno,
>
> Bear in mind the guy you're conversing with, Alan Baker, is a moron.
>
> He has an IQ of about 40 so he loves to argue about everything for fun.
>
> Note that it used to be there is no iPhone in the world which can be
> initialized without connecting to the Internet. It's impossible. And
> yet, Alan Baker claims he did the impossible.

I never made such a claim.

>
> Just as he claims to teach auto racing, Alan Baker doesn't know the first
> thing about racing. He claims to own bimmers and he doesn't know teh most
> basic of the simplest things about bimmers.
> Alan Baker is an IQ 40 moron in everything.

For the record, I do, indeed, teach road racing. I was invited to join
the Sports Car Club of British Columbia's Race Drivers Committee at the
conclusion of the 2016 racing season.

For the record, I own a 2012 BMW 135i M Sport Edition.

>
> As for the more recent iPhones, if they have an eSIM and if it's an iPhone
> 14 or greater, only after that can someone initialize it WITHOUT the
> Internet. But all iPhones prior to the 14 *require* the Internet to
> initialize.
> <https://www.google.com/search?
> q=can+you+initialize+a+brand+new+iphone+without+internet>

This is false.

>
> No other operating system on the planet requires the Internet just to use
> the phone. Just Apple.
>
> The iPhone is nothing more than a dumb terminal without the Internet.
> It can't even make phone calls.

This is also false.

On 2024-12-23 20:18, Andrew wrote:
> Arno Welzel wrote on Tue, 24 Dec 2024 04:12:03 +0100 :
>
>>> I even thought you knew more about Android than I do, Arno.
>>> But I must have been wrong.
>>
>> No, you just don't tell what you *REALLY* mean.
>>
>> If you want to express "one needs to create an Apple account to use an
>> iPhone" than say it! And don't say, that an iPhone has to PHYSICALLY
>> CONNECTED to the internet all the time!
>
> How is the Apple messaging going to work among other Apple users (other
> than plain jane sms) without logging into an Apple server on the Internet?

How is ANY messaging service going to work without a connection to the
servers that implement it?

>
> How is Apple's facetime going to work without logging into an Apple server
> on the Internet?

Same question.

>
> How is Apple's App Store gonna work without logging into an Apple server on
> the Internet?
>
> If you don't log into Apple servers, Apple will brick your account, Arno.
> (Ask me how I know this).

You lie?

>
> And then you have to visit the Apple store with your government ID just to
> get Apple to let you log back in (when you had never ever logged out!).
>
> Only Apple requires you to log into their servers to use YOUR device.
> Nobody else.
>
> Just Apple.
>
> How is an iPhone even going to be initialized with the Internet Arno?
> (Only after iPhone 14 and even then only with an eSIM can you initialize an
> iPhone WITHOUT the Internet Arno - and even then - it's over the cellular
> network).
>
> The iPhone is a completely brain-dead dumb terminal if the user doesn't log
> into Apple servers every moment of every day of the rest of their lives.
>
> Apple designed the iPhone as a dumb terminal.
> No other operating system is anywhere near as brain dead as iOS is.

False.

Arno Welzel wrote on Tue, 24 Dec 2024 04:07:13 +0100 :

> Because Apple wants it this way. If you don't like that, don't use the
> devices - problem solved.

With that idiotic statement, you're completely misunderstanding the point.

I have plenty of Apple devices. Jesus. It's not about liking it or not.
I have them because I test them. They are what they are. I understand them.

And what they are, is clearly they're designed to be very dumb terminals.
Devoid of any useful functionality without logging into Apple servers.

You can't deny nearly 100% of iOS owners are always logged into Apple
servers, nor that most of the walled garden is inside those Apple servers.

Which means Apple tracks *everything* you do on those devices.
Think about that.

It's reality.
Not marketing bullshit.

Please don't be like Apple trolls like Alan Baker who have an IQ of 40.
They *love* Apple devices (which is fine); but they know nothing about them

The fact I know about Apple devices doesn't mean I have to like them.
Or not like them.

That's immaterial.

What matters is that what I say about them almost nobody knows.
Because nobody thinks about how the Apple ecosystem is designed.

An iPhone is designed to be a dumb terminal which suits Apple's profits.
That's just a fact.

If you're ignorant of the fact that people are constantly logged into
Apple's mainframe tracking servers, then you need to learn that fact.

Andrew, 2024-12-24 10:59:

> Arno Welzel wrote on Tue, 24 Dec 2024 04:07:13 +0100 :
>
>> Because Apple wants it this way. If you don't like that, don't use the
>> devices - problem solved.
>
> With that idiotic statement, you're completely misunderstanding the point.

Ok, then you don't care for this requirement and it is fine for you -
problem solved.

--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de

Andrew, 2024-12-24 05:18:

> Arno Welzel wrote on Tue, 24 Dec 2024 04:12:03 +0100 :
>
>>> I even thought you knew more about Android than I do, Arno.
>>> But I must have been wrong.
>>
>> No, you just don't tell what you *REALLY* mean.
>>
>> If you want to express "one needs to create an Apple account to use an
>> iPhone" than say it! And don't say, that an iPhone has to PHYSICALLY
>> CONNECTED to the internet all the time!
>
> How is the Apple messaging going to work among other Apple users (other
> than plain jane sms) without logging into an Apple server on the Internet?
>
> How is Apple's facetime going to work without logging into an Apple server
> on the Internet?
>
> How is Apple's App Store gonna work without logging into an Apple server on
> the Internet?

It wont't. But that was not the point. I talked about using the phone at
all. Even an iPhone does stop working COMPLETELY just because there is
no internet.

--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de

Andrew, 2024-12-24 05:24:

> Arno Welzel wrote on Tue, 24 Dec 2024 04:12:48 +0100 :
>
>>> Please tell all of us how you can do *anything* on the iOS device *without*
>>> logging into the Internet to *create* an Apple account on Apple's servers.
>>
>> I am not talking about "logging in" anywhere!
>>
>> I talk about ACTIVE NETWORK CONNECTION!
>
> Please run this search and tell us what the results are when you do...
> *how to activate brand new iphone 13 without internet*

AGAIN:

I am not talking about "logging in" anywhere!

I talk about ACTIVE NETWORK CONNECTION!

So - initialize the thing and THEN TURN OFF INTERNET. Can you still take
pictures and listen to music or open the calendar and address book? Yes?
Why?

--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de

Jörg Lorenz, 2024-12-24 07:11:

> On 24.12.24 04:16, Arno Welzel wrote:
>> Jörg Lorenz, 2024-12-22 16:58:
>>
>>> On 22.12.24 16:50, s|b wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 00:35:16 +0100, Arno Welzel wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On the other hand - messengers with end-to-end-encryption for iOS and
>>>>> Android exist.
>>>>
>>>> <https://signal.org/>
>>>
>>> Signal and Threema: https://threema.ch/en
>>>
>>> Threema is the only messenger being accepted for public institutions in
>>> Switzerland. Particularly for law enforcement, military use and public
>>> education.
>>
>> Of course - Threema is provided by a Swiss company.
>
> Idiot. Merry Christmas.

Huh? <https://threema.ch> is not located in Switzerland? Or what do you
mean?

--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de

On 2024-12-24 04:09, Arno Welzel wrote:
> david, 2024-12-21 21:35:
>
>> Using <news:lso7ksFo80oU6@mid.individual.net>, Arno Welzel wrote:
>>
>>> And if you don't need the walled garden all the time, then you don't
>>> need to be logged in all the time. So what?
>>
>> Nobody on iOS is NOT logged into Apple's servers 100% of the time.
>> 100% of iOS users are logged into Apple servers 100% of the time.
>>
>> Which is why Android (not iOS) has by far the word market share.
>> That's what
>
> No, Android has the market share because the devices are damn cheap. If
> iPhones would also be available for less than 100 USD like many cheap
> Android devices, than the market share would be much higher.
>
> Most people don't care for privacy, really. Only money is important.

Not "only", but money is certainly important. I need a number of
features, and I will not pay 600€ for them.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 2024-12-24 13:38, Arno Welzel wrote:
> Jörg Lorenz, 2024-12-24 07:11:
>
>> On 24.12.24 04:16, Arno Welzel wrote:
>>> Jörg Lorenz, 2024-12-22 16:58:
>>>
>>>> On 22.12.24 16:50, s|b wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 00:35:16 +0100, Arno Welzel wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On the other hand - messengers with end-to-end-encryption for iOS and
>>>>>> Android exist.
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://signal.org/>
>>>>
>>>> Signal and Threema: https://threema.ch/en
>>>>
>>>> Threema is the only messenger being accepted for public institutions in
>>>> Switzerland. Particularly for law enforcement, military use and public
>>>> education.
>>>
>>> Of course - Threema is provided by a Swiss company.
>>
>> Idiot. Merry Christmas.
>
> Huh? <https://threema.ch> is not located in Switzerland? Or what do you
> mean?

That you are implying that the Swiss use Threema simply because it is
Swiss made, not because it is the only one that passed their security
and privacy tests.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 24.12.24 14:02, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2024-12-24 13:38, Arno Welzel wrote:
>> Jörg Lorenz, 2024-12-24 07:11:
>>
>>> On 24.12.24 04:16, Arno Welzel wrote:
>>>> Jörg Lorenz, 2024-12-22 16:58:
>>>>
>>>>> On 22.12.24 16:50, s|b wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 00:35:16 +0100, Arno Welzel wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On the other hand - messengers with end-to-end-encryption for iOS and
>>>>>>> Android exist.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://signal.org/>
>>>>>
>>>>> Signal and Threema: https://threema.ch/en
>>>>>
>>>>> Threema is the only messenger being accepted for public institutions in
>>>>> Switzerland. Particularly for law enforcement, military use and public
>>>>> education.
>>>>
>>>> Of course - Threema is provided by a Swiss company.
>>>
>>> Idiot. Merry Christmas.
>>
>> Huh? <https://threema.ch> is not located in Switzerland? Or what do you
>> mean?
>
> That you are implying that the Swiss use Threema simply because it is
> Swiss made, not because it is the only one that passed their security
> and privacy tests.

Bingo! You got it!

--
"Roma locuta, causa finita." (Augustinus)

Arno Welzel wrote on Tue, 24 Dec 2024 13:27:06 +0100 :

>> With that idiotic statement, you're completely misunderstanding the point.
>
> Ok, then you don't care for this requirement and it is fine for you -
> problem solved.

This is a technical group, is it not?
There is no "problem" to solve other than to UNDERSTAND what Apple does.

The "problem" is only one out of a million people UNDERSTANDs Apple.
Because most people are incredibly ignorant about what Apple does.

You keep misunderstanding that it's not about whether I care or not.
It's not about whether I can solve all of Apple's problems or not either.

_It's about *U-N-D-E-R-S-T-A-N-D-I-N-G* what Apple is._

Most people don't understand what Apple is because they only know what
Apple advertises - but they don't actually UNDERSTAND what Apple does.

Apple designs the iPhone as a dumb terminal which requires 24/7/365
constant access to Apple's mainframe servers to do stuff people do.

Even if most people do not understand that rather astute observation,
nobody can deny that almost every one of the billions of Apple iPhone
owners is constantly logged into the Apple servers 24/7/365.

Why is that a fact?

Think about the answer to that sagacious question before you respond.

On 2024-12-24 04:35, Arno Welzel wrote:
> Andrew, 2024-12-24 05:18:
>
>> Arno Welzel wrote on Tue, 24 Dec 2024 04:12:03 +0100 :
>>
>>>> I even thought you knew more about Android than I do, Arno.
>>>> But I must have been wrong.
>>>
>>> No, you just don't tell what you *REALLY* mean.
>>>
>>> If you want to express "one needs to create an Apple account to use an
>>> iPhone" than say it! And don't say, that an iPhone has to PHYSICALLY
>>> CONNECTED to the internet all the time!
>>
>> How is the Apple messaging going to work among other Apple users (other
>> than plain jane sms) without logging into an Apple server on the Internet?
>>
>> How is Apple's facetime going to work without logging into an Apple server
>> on the Internet?
>>
>> How is Apple's App Store gonna work without logging into an Apple server on
>> the Internet?
>
> It wont't. But that was not the point. I talked about using the phone at
> all. Even an iPhone does stop working COMPLETELY just because there is
> no internet.
>
>
>

Not even close to "completely" in fact.

Most things that you can do on an iPhone you can do regardless of
whether you're logged into your Apple Account or not.

:-)

Carlos E.R., 2024-12-24 14:02:

> On 2024-12-24 13:38, Arno Welzel wrote:
>> Jörg Lorenz, 2024-12-24 07:11:
>>
>>> On 24.12.24 04:16, Arno Welzel wrote:
>>>> Jörg Lorenz, 2024-12-22 16:58:
>>>>
>>>>> On 22.12.24 16:50, s|b wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 00:35:16 +0100, Arno Welzel wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On the other hand - messengers with end-to-end-encryption for iOS and
>>>>>>> Android exist.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://signal.org/>
>>>>>
>>>>> Signal and Threema: https://threema.ch/en
>>>>>
>>>>> Threema is the only messenger being accepted for public institutions in
>>>>> Switzerland. Particularly for law enforcement, military use and public
>>>>> education.
>>>>
>>>> Of course - Threema is provided by a Swiss company.
>>>
>>> Idiot. Merry Christmas.
>>
>> Huh? <https://threema.ch> is not located in Switzerland? Or what do you
>> mean?
>
> That you are implying that the Swiss use Threema simply because it is
> Swiss made, not because it is the only one that passed their security
> and privacy tests.

Well - "Swiss made" also means, they know the requirements for Swiss
public institutions better then companies from the US or other
countries. And even when companies from other countries provide the same
level of security and privacy - still a Swiss company would be
preferrable for Swiss public institutions, don't you think so?

Signal or Matrix are not worse in this matter - but they are not Swiss
companies.

Also see: <https://element.io/case-studies/tchap>

--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de

Arno Welzel wrote on Wed, 25 Dec 2024 18:07:27 +0100 :

>> There is no "problem" to solve other than to UNDERSTAND what Apple does.
>
> What Apple does should be well known.

Agree - but there are many people on the Apple newsgroups who are clueless.
All they know is the propaganda Apple feeds them to believe.

> They've been doing this now for more than 15 years.

Agree. For example, Apple's strategy of not providing external memory
hardware is likely designed to feed iCloud storage subscriptions.

> So why did you bring this up at all if you don't have a problem with it?

I didn't bring it up. You did. I politely responded to what you brought up.
>> The "problem" is only one out of a million people UNDERSTANDs Apple.
>> Because most people are incredibly ignorant about what Apple does.
>
> People are ignorant about EVERYTHING and not just Apple.

Agree. For example, some people think gravity is a force. They're stupid.
<https://duckduckgo.com/?t=h_&q=why+is+gravity+not+a+force&ia=web>

> Nearly ALL companies do this.

Agree; luckily for Android, Google doesn't require an account on the device
for the device to work perfectly fine. Everyone knows this to be a fact.

> Google Play Services are a requirement(!) for many apps.

Agree that <com.google.android.gms> is a requirement for many Android apps;
but that's not the same thing as the device requiring a mothership account.

Only Apple devices require a mothership account just to activate them.

From your comments, I'm slowly realizing you don't appear to understand
there is a difference between an operating system versus apps on it.

> Microsoft 365 also requires(!) an online account.

One of us doesn't understand what "Microsoft 365" is if you say that.
<https://duckduckgo.com/?t=h_&q=what+is+microsoft+365>

I'm slowly realizing you don't know the difference between an operating
system versus a suite of software that runs on that operating system.

>> Even if most people do not understand that rather astute observation,
>> nobody can deny that almost every one of the billions of Apple iPhone
>> owners is constantly logged into the Apple servers 24/7/365.
>
> Same as with Microsoft, Google and WhatsApp and a dozen other services.

Again, the reason you don't appear to understand how operating systems work
is your statements show you've never been taught that there is a difference
between what an operating system is, versus what an app running on it is.

Please look up what an "operating system" is before responding. Thanks!
<https://duckduckgo.com/&q=what+is+the+difference+between+an+os+vs+an+app+that+runs+on+that+os>

Please respond only when you figure out that an operating system isn't the
same thing as the apps that run on that operating system.

This is key to understanding that only the Apple iOS operating system
requires you to be on the Internet to activate just to boot to it.

Nobody else.
Just Apple.

On 2024-12-25 18:19, Arno Welzel wrote:
> Carlos E.R., 2024-12-24 14:02:
>
>> On 2024-12-24 13:38, Arno Welzel wrote:
>>> Jörg Lorenz, 2024-12-24 07:11:
>>>
>>>> On 24.12.24 04:16, Arno Welzel wrote:
>>>>> Jörg Lorenz, 2024-12-22 16:58:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 22.12.24 16:50, s|b wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 00:35:16 +0100, Arno Welzel wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On the other hand - messengers with end-to-end-encryption for iOS and
>>>>>>>> Android exist.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://signal.org/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Signal and Threema: https://threema.ch/en
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Threema is the only messenger being accepted for public institutions in
>>>>>> Switzerland. Particularly for law enforcement, military use and public
>>>>>> education.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course - Threema is provided by a Swiss company.
>>>>
>>>> Idiot. Merry Christmas.
>>>
>>> Huh? <https://threema.ch> is not located in Switzerland? Or what do you
>>> mean?
>>
>> That you are implying that the Swiss use Threema simply because it is
>> Swiss made, not because it is the only one that passed their security
>> and privacy tests.
>
> Well - "Swiss made" also means, they know the requirements for Swiss
> public institutions better then companies from the US or other
> countries. And even when companies from other countries provide the same
> level of security and privacy - still a Swiss company would be
> preferrable for Swiss public institutions, don't you think so?

No.

> Signal or Matrix are not worse in this matter - but they are not Swiss
> companies.

No, this is not correct. In the subject of privacy and security, they
are worse. At least Signal.

It really is not about being Swiss.

For example:

An end-to-end encryption is used to ensure the confidentiality of
WhatsApp. However, until recently, the automatic backup of the chats did
not offer the same security, according to a statement by the SNSF. This
is because the personal key to the data stored in the cloud was known to
the company.Jul 30, 2023

WhatsApp security test identifies weakness - SWI swissinfo.ch

<https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/sci-tech/whatsapp-security-test-identifies-weakness/48699806>

<https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/rzjl7i/swiss_army_bans_whatsapp_telegram_and_signal_due/>

"Threema relies on its own servers in Switzerland, while Signal uses US
companies like Amazon and Google. So if you want to use a service whose
servers are located in Europe, Threema does seem to be the only game in
town. By the way, Threema is also subject to jurisdiction in
Switzerland, and unlike Signal, the Swiss also complies with the
provisions of the European General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR)."

>
> Also see: <https://element.io/case-studies/tchap>

Ah, didn't know tchap. Yes, it is the same basic problem.

>

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Andrew, 2024-12-25 19:08:

> Arno Welzel wrote on Wed, 25 Dec 2024 18:07:27 +0100 :
>
>>> There is no "problem" to solve other than to UNDERSTAND what Apple does.
>>
>> What Apple does should be well known.
>
> Agree - but there are many people on the Apple newsgroups who are clueless.
> All they know is the propaganda Apple feeds them to believe.
>
>> They've been doing this now for more than 15 years.
>
> Agree. For example, Apple's strategy of not providing external memory
> hardware is likely designed to feed iCloud storage subscriptions.
>
>> So why did you bring this up at all if you don't have a problem with it?
>
> I didn't bring it up. You did. I politely responded to what you brought up.

Nope. You startet this in message
<vk4ier$1174$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com>:

Quote:

The iPhone is a dumb terminal - devoid of functionality if you don't log
into the Apple mainframe servers 24/7/365 just for basic functionality.

The funny thing is Apple users are clueless that they are logging into
Apple's mainframe servers 24/7/365 for all those "walled garden" goodies.

(End of quote)

>
>>> The "problem" is only one out of a million people UNDERSTANDs Apple.
>>> Because most people are incredibly ignorant about what Apple does.
>>
>> People are ignorant about EVERYTHING and not just Apple.
>
> Agree. For example, some people think gravity is a force. They're stupid.
> <https://duckduckgo.com/?t=h_&q=why+is+gravity+not+a+force&ia=web>
>
>> Nearly ALL companies do this.
>
> Agree; luckily for Android, Google doesn't require an account on the device
> for the device to work perfectly fine. Everyone knows this to be a fact.

It depends on how you define "work perfectly fine". Many apps and
services do *not* work without a Google account on the device since they
*require* Google Play Services.

>> Google Play Services are a requirement(!) for many apps.
>
> Agree that <com.google.android.gms> is a requirement for many Android apps;
> but that's not the same thing as the device requiring a mothership account.

Which makes not a big difference. And com.google.android.gms is not the
only requirement, there are lot more services which apps need, depending
on what the app does. And good luck getting Google Wallet or banking
apps running without a Google Account.

> Only Apple devices require a mothership account just to activate them.

So what?

> From your comments, I'm slowly realizing you don't appear to understand
> there is a difference between an operating system versus apps on it.

And from your comments I believe you don't understand that this makes no
difference. When users need an account and online services to be able to
use something, then it does not matter, if that requirement comes from
the OS or the apps or both - in the end you still need the online
account and services.

Most users *will* need a Google account for their Android smartphones
since they *need* certain apps - e.g. banking apps which will not work
without Google Play services. So it does not matter, if the device
itself may work without an account - in the end you still need it. Yes,
with microG you may provide this without the need of an "official"
Android but with using e/OS/ or similar - but you still need to create
and use a Google account for certain apps.

>> Microsoft 365 also requires(!) an online account.
>
> One of us doesn't understand what "Microsoft 365" is if you say that.
> <https://duckduckgo.com/?t=h_&q=what+is+microsoft+365>

I work in a company where Microsoft 365 and Azure Cloud Clients and
Azure Desktop get implemented for thousands of employees. What is your
professional experience with that?

> I'm slowly realizing you don't know the difference between an operating
> system versus a suite of software that runs on that operating system.

I wouldn't be so sure about this: <https://github.com/arnowelzel/>

--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de

Carlos E.R., 2024-12-25 19:49:

> On 2024-12-25 18:19, Arno Welzel wrote:
[...]
>> Well - "Swiss made" also means, they know the requirements for Swiss
>> public institutions better then companies from the US or other
>> countries. And even when companies from other countries provide the same
>> level of security and privacy - still a Swiss company would be
>> preferrable for Swiss public institutions, don't you think so?
>
> No.
>
>> Signal or Matrix are not worse in this matter - but they are not Swiss
>> companies.
>
> No, this is not correct. In the subject of privacy and security, they
> are worse. At least Signal.
>
> It really is not about being Swiss.
>
> For example:
>
> An end-to-end encryption is used to ensure the confidentiality of
> WhatsApp. However, until recently, the automatic backup of the chats did
> not offer the same security, according to a statement by the SNSF. This
> is because the personal key to the data stored in the cloud was known to
> the company.Jul 30, 2023
>
> WhatsApp security test identifies weakness - SWI swissinfo.ch
>
> <https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/sci-tech/whatsapp-security-test-identifies-weakness/48699806>

What has WhatsApp to do with Matrix and Signal?

> <https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/rzjl7i/swiss_army_bans_whatsapp_telegram_and_signal_due/>
>
> "Threema relies on its own servers in Switzerland, while Signal uses US
> companies like Amazon and Google. So if you want to use a service whose
> servers are located in Europe, Threema does seem to be the only game in
> town. By the way, Threema is also subject to jurisdiction in
> Switzerland, and unlike Signal, the Swiss also complies with the
> provisions of the European General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR)."

Which just confirms my point: a Swiss company is preferrable for
institutions in Switzerland for many reasons and not just because of
technical ones.

--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de

Arno Welzel wrote on Tue, 24 Dec 2024 13:35:46 +0100 :

>> How is Apple's App Store gonna work without logging into an Apple server on
>> the Internet?
>
> It wont't. But that was not the point. I talked about using the phone at
> all. Even an iPhone does stop working COMPLETELY just because there is
> no internet.

Good. Because Apple iOS devices are dumb terminals attached to the "walled
garden" which itself is based purely on Apple's servers on the Internet.

Which is why 99.99% of iOS owners are connected to Apple's servers on the
Internet 24/7/365. Every moment they're on the device. Apple tracks it all.

No other common consumer operating system is designed as a dumb terminal.
Just iOS.

Worse, NOTHING on the iOS device works without Apple servers involved.

I wonder if you're aware that the iPhone or iPad can't even be activated
without connecting to Apple's servers (which are clearly on the Internet).

Are you aware of that Arno?