Carlos E.R. wrote on Wed, 18 Dec 2024 08:37:04 +0100 :

>> The only reason RCS is in iPhones is the EU demanded Apple add it.
>> RCS encryption isn't there only because the EU didn't demand that too.
>
> The EU did not think Apple would be that stupid as to not implement it.

I agree with you and I disagree with Frank who had chastised you.

What appears to be transpiring are the following events:

1. Apple said in court the last thing they'll ever want to do
is to interoperate with Android. That's a fact, paraphrased.

2. The EU forced Apple to interoperate (a little bit) with Android.

3. Unfortunately, the EU didn't force Apple to handle encryption.

4. So nobody gets interoperability (with encryption) because
Apple execs decided interoperability is a threat to their profits.

5. And it is.

6. Meanwhile, most people are completely clueless that the problem is
that Apple has no intention of ever interoperating with Android.

7. Hence, the FBI warned people that, essentially, there is no
encryption when Apple messages are involved with Android devices.

The FBI doesn't take sides so they don't mention Apple is the problem.
But anyone with half a brain is well aware that Apple is the problem.

W Wed, 18 Dec 2024 08:22:21 +0100, Jörg Lorenz napisal:

> And you do not seem to understand the powerplay of big tech.

Jorg Lornz is the one to explain it though since he understand it all.

Jorg: Please explain to all what you know about this tech "powerplay."

On 2024-12-18 09:47, Andrew wrote:
> Carlos E.R. wrote on Wed, 18 Dec 2024 08:37:04 +0100 :
>
>>> The only reason RCS is in iPhones is the EU demanded Apple add it.
>>> RCS encryption isn't there only because the EU didn't demand that too.
>>
>> The EU did not think Apple would be that stupid as to not implement it.
>
> I agree with you and I disagree with Frank who had chastised you.
>
> What appears to be transpiring are the following events:
>
> 1. Apple said in court the last thing they'll ever want to do
>   is to interoperate with Android. That's a fact, paraphrased.

Then let's see the exact quote rather than your interpretation of it.

On 2024-12-18 18:47, Andrew wrote:
> Carlos E.R. wrote on Wed, 18 Dec 2024 08:37:04 +0100 :
>
>>> The only reason RCS is in iPhones is the EU demanded Apple add it.
>>> RCS encryption isn't there only because the EU didn't demand that too.
>>
>> The EU did not think Apple would be that stupid as to not implement it.
>
> I agree with you and I disagree with Frank who had chastised you.
>
> What appears to be transpiring are the following events:
>
> 1. Apple said in court the last thing they'll ever want to do
>   is to interoperate with Android. That's a fact, paraphrased.
>
> 2. The EU forced Apple to interoperate (a little bit) with Android.
>
> 3. Unfortunately, the EU didn't force Apple to handle encryption.
>
> 4. So nobody gets interoperability (with encryption) because   Apple
> execs decided interoperability is a threat to their profits.
>
> 5. And it is.
>
> 6. Meanwhile, most people are completely clueless that the problem is
>   that Apple has no intention of ever interoperating with Android.
>
> 7. Hence, the FBI warned people that, essentially, there is no
> encryption when Apple messages are involved with Android devices.
>
> The FBI doesn't take sides so they don't mention Apple is the problem.
> But anyone with half a brain is well aware that Apple is the problem.

It is, however, reasonable for a company to say that they will only
implement the approved standard. However, I don't know for what reasons,
the standard will not be expanded for some reason I don't know, either
temporarily or permanently. That company should push hard for the
standard to expand. Maybe this can not be. And say clearly when the
standard is expected to be ready. IF.

In that case, said company should implement instead the existing
proprietary method, which perhaps, I do not know, has been offered free
of charge. Even as a temporary measure while the standard is developed,
for the benefit of all users.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Andrew <andys@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> The FBI doesn't take sides so they don't mention Apple is the problem.
> But anyone with half a brain is well aware that Apple is the problem.
>

In my opinion Apple would not lose customers if they made RCS
interoperability possible with Android. People buy Apple products not for
their messaging app, but for many other features. If Google and Apple could
agree on an encryption protocol — even temporarily — it would show goodwill
to all their customers.

Having said that, I’m glad Apple adopted some RCS functions. At least now I
can see when people have read my messages (if they’ve turned that feature
on) and reactions are now possible with my Android friends.

badgolferman wrote on Wed, 18 Dec 2024 21:41:16 -0000 (UTC) :

>> The FBI doesn't take sides so they don't mention Apple is the problem.
>> But anyone with half a brain is well aware that Apple is the problem.
>>
>
> In my opinion Apple would not lose customers if they made RCS
> interoperability possible with Android. People buy Apple products not for
> their messaging app, but for many other features.

Hi badgolferman,

I can speak with you normally, where I don't have to dumb down the message.

Knowing that Apple is one of the most brilliant marketing organizations in
the world, and assuming Apple legal must also be the best in the world, and
knowing that Apple only tells the truth in court, we can perhaps ascertain
Apple's true intentions by their own executives' emails deposed in the Epic
case.

We've discussed those very emails on this very newsgroup in gory detail, so
there's no need to repeat them other than to summarize that Apple considers
interoperability outside the walled garden to be a dire threat to profits.

And it is.

Since we discussed this many times, you're likely well aware those Apple
executives said in those published internal emails that the messaging app
allowed Apple to lock people into the walled garden ecosystem -
particularly - Apple execs stated - young impressionable kids whose parents
buy their iPhones for them and whose parents want to give the kids what
their peers ask them to have.

This is, almost certainly, why some of those impressionable kids make such
a big deal out of green/blue bubbles, where, ironically, these
non-technical kids are surprisingly clueless that a green bubble message
with Android RCS users means that the messaging is NOT encrypted.

If Google and Apple could
> agree on an encryption protocol - even temporarily - it would show goodwill
> to all their customers.

It's not Google holding it up. It's Apple. (See above reason why.)
Remember, the executives publicly said interoperability petrified them.

> Having said that, I'm glad Apple adopted some RCS functions. At least now I
> can see when people have read my messages (if they've turned that feature
> on) and reactions are now possible with my Android friends.

+1. Agree. It's great that the EU is slowly forcing Apple to do things that
their customers want them to do but which Apple feels decreases profits.

The last thing Apple wants to do is interoperate with any other ecosystem.

Carlos E.R. wrote on Wed, 18 Dec 2024 21:18:26 +0100 :

>> The FBI doesn't take sides so they don't mention Apple is the problem.
>> But anyone with half a brain is well aware that Apple is the problem.
>
> It is, however, reasonable for a company to say that they will only
> implement the approved standard. However, I don't know for what reasons,
> the standard will not be expanded for some reason I don't know, either
> temporarily or permanently. That company should push hard for the
> standard to expand. Maybe this can not be. And say clearly when the
> standard is expected to be ready. IF.
>
> In that case, said company should implement instead the existing
> proprietary method, which perhaps, I do not know, has been offered free
> of charge. Even as a temporary measure while the standard is developed,
> for the benefit of all users.

We all know from Apple's history that the last thing Apple wants is
interoperability with other platforms (the proof is rampant everywhere).

We also all know Apple is being forced to care about the customer by EU
laws, where we all know Apple implements as little as it can get away with.

In addition, we all know the Epic deposition showcased Apple executives'
emails, which said that the messaging platform is one of the most critical
components of the walled garden that Apple does NOT want interoperable.

With all that in mind, we also all know Apple (and Google) are on the same
standards committee - where - we don't really know what goes on behind
those closed doors.

Is Apple stalling?
I don't know.

Does anyone have more data on what Apple's specific objections are?

On 2024-12-18 18:56, Andrew wrote:
> badgolferman wrote on Wed, 18 Dec 2024 21:41:16 -0000 (UTC) :
>
>>> The FBI doesn't take sides so they don't mention Apple is the problem.
>>> But anyone with half a brain is well aware that Apple is the problem.
>>>
>>
>> In my opinion Apple would not lose customers if they made RCS
>> interoperability possible with Android. People buy Apple products not for
>> their messaging app, but for many other features.
>
> Hi badgolferman,
>
> I can speak with you normally, where I don't have to dumb down the message.
>
> Knowing that Apple is one of the most brilliant marketing organizations in
> the world, and assuming Apple legal must also be the best in the world, and
> knowing that Apple only tells the truth in court, we can perhaps ascertain
> Apple's true intentions by their own executives' emails deposed in the Epic
> case.
>
> We've discussed those very emails on this very newsgroup in gory detail, so
> there's no need to repeat them other than to summarize that Apple considers
> interoperability outside the walled garden to be a dire threat to profits.
>
> And it is.
>
> Since we discussed this many times, you're likely well aware those Apple
> executives said in those published internal emails that the messaging app
> allowed Apple to lock people into the walled garden ecosystem -
> particularly - Apple execs stated - young impressionable kids whose parents
> buy their iPhones for them and whose parents want to give the kids what
> their peers ask them to have.
>
> This is, almost certainly, why some of those impressionable kids make such
> a big deal out of green/blue bubbles, where, ironically, these
> non-technical kids are surprisingly clueless that a green bubble message
> with Android RCS users means that the messaging is NOT encrypted.
>
> If Google and Apple could
>> agree on an encryption protocol - even temporarily - it would show
>> goodwill
>> to all their customers.
>
> It's not Google holding it up. It's Apple. (See above reason why.)
> Remember, the executives publicly said interoperability petrified them.
I love how with each repetition (of a claim you won't actually support),
it gets more dramatic.

"Petrified them"?

Please.

On 2024-12-18 18:56, Andrew wrote:
> Carlos E.R. wrote on Wed, 18 Dec 2024 21:18:26 +0100 :
>
>>> The FBI doesn't take sides so they don't mention Apple is the problem.
>>> But anyone with half a brain is well aware that Apple is the problem.
>>
>> It is, however, reasonable for a company to say that they will only
>> implement the approved standard. However, I don't know for what
>> reasons, the standard will not be expanded for some reason I don't
>> know, either temporarily or permanently. That company should push hard
>> for the standard to expand. Maybe this can not be. And say clearly
>> when the standard is expected to be ready. IF.
>>
>> In that case, said company should implement instead the existing
>> proprietary method, which perhaps, I do not know, has been offered
>> free of charge. Even as a temporary measure while the standard is
>> developed, for the benefit of all users.
>
> We all know from Apple's history that the last thing Apple wants is
> interoperability with other platforms (the proof is rampant everywhere).

And yet you won't provide it.

Weird.

>
> We also all know Apple is being forced to care about the customer by EU
> laws, where we all know Apple implements as little as it can get away with.
>
> In addition, we all know the Epic deposition showcased Apple executives'
> emails, which said that the messaging platform is one of the most critical
> components of the walled garden that Apple does NOT want interoperable.

>
> With all that in mind, we also all know Apple (and Google) are on the same
> standards committee - where - we don't really know what goes on behind
> those closed doors.
> Is Apple stalling?
> I don't know.
And yet you'll claim they are.

Weird.

Alan, 2024-12-19 04:22:

> On 2024-12-18 18:56, Andrew wrote:
[...]
>> We all know from Apple's history that the last thing Apple wants is
>> interoperability with other platforms (the proof is rampant everywhere).
>
> And yet you won't provide it.
>
> Weird.

Is iMessage or FaceTime available for Android or Windows or at least
compatible with anything else?

--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de

badgolferman, 2024-12-18 22:41:

> Andrew <andys@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>> The FBI doesn't take sides so they don't mention Apple is the problem.
>> But anyone with half a brain is well aware that Apple is the problem.
>>
>
>
> In my opinion Apple would not lose customers if they made RCS
> interoperability possible with Android. People buy Apple products not for
> their messaging app, but for many other features. If Google and Apple could
> agree on an encryption protocol — even temporarily — it would show goodwill
> to all their customers.

On the other hand Apple customers don't care. They also don't care that
FaceTime is only possible with other Apple users. In the US iOS has a
market share of nearly 60% and the Android market share is declining slowly:

<https://explodingtopics.com/blog/iphone-android-users>

So in the US Apple is like Nokia was in the past. Yes, some people still
use Android devices, but not the majority. It's just the worldwide
market share where Android is still dominant because manufacturers can
offer much cheaper devices this way.

> Having said that, I’m glad Apple adopted some RCS functions. At least now I
> can see when people have read my messages (if they’ve turned that feature
> on) and reactions are now possible with my Android friends.

ACK - I hope one day RCS with encryption will be an official standard
and we can finally get rid of proprietary messengers.

--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de

On 2024-12-20 01:46, Arno Welzel wrote:
> Alan, 2024-12-19 04:22:
>
>> On 2024-12-18 18:56, Andrew wrote:
> [...]
>>> We all know from Apple's history that the last thing Apple wants is
>>> interoperability with other platforms (the proof is rampant everywhere).
>>
>> And yet you won't provide it.
>>
>> Weird.
>
> Is iMessage or FaceTime available for Android or Windows or at least
> compatible with anything else?
iMessage let's you send and receive SMS messages.

Alan wrote:

>>Is iMessage or FaceTime available for Android or Windows or at least
>>compatible with anything else?

>iMessage let's you send and receive SMS messages.

Not exactly. Messages app lets you send iMessages, SMS, RCS messages.

On 2024-12-20 09:30, badgolferman wrote:
> Alan wrote:
>
>>> Is iMessage or FaceTime available for Android or Windows or at least
>>> compatible with anything else?
>
>> iMessage let's you send and receive SMS messages.
>
> Not exactly. Messages app lets you send iMessages, SMS, RCS messages.

Yeah, yeah...

I used the wrong term.

Arno Welzel wrote on Fri, 20 Dec 2024 10:53:49 +0100 :

> On the other hand Apple customers don't care. They also don't care that
> FaceTime is only possible with other Apple users. In the US iOS has a
> market share of nearly 60% and the Android market share is declining slowly:
> <https://explodingtopics.com/blog/iphone-android-users>

Given the US is only about half Android and yet the world is overwhelmingly
Android, we all need to keep in mind Apple's vaunted "walled garden"
doesn't work unless you have constant 24/7/365 Internet access which most
of the world may not necessarily have.

The fact Apple devices have the highest overall cost of ownership and the
least functionality also plays a role as only people in rich countries can
afford to buy back the functionality that Apple removes from their devices.

> So in the US Apple is like Nokia was in the past. Yes, some people still
> use Android devices, but not the majority. It's just the worldwide
> market share where Android is still dominant because manufacturers can
> offer much cheaper devices this way.

In other words, Apple's strategy of designing the iPhone as a dumb terminal
which requires 24/7/365 Internet access to the "walled garden" coupled with
Apple's strategy of removing functionality so the user has to buy it back -
means only people in rich countries can afford such an abusive use model.
>> Having said that, I'm glad Apple adopted some RCS functions. At least now I
>> can see when people have read my messages (if they've turned that feature
>> on) and reactions are now possible with my Android friends.
>
> ACK - I hope one day RCS with encryption will be an official standard
> and we can finally get rid of proprietary messengers.

Everyone wants (except Apple) seamless messaging interoperability between
platforms (where Apple execs said they were "terrified" of that happening).

In misc.phone.mobile.iphone badgolferman <REMOVETHISbadgolferman@gmail.com> wrote:
> Alan wrote:

> >>Is iMessage or FaceTime available for Android or Windows or at least
> >>compatible with anything else?

> >iMessage let's you send and receive SMS messages.

> Not exactly. Messages app lets you send iMessages, SMS, RCS messages.

RCS messages if using iOS v18 and higher. IIRC, the carriers must support RCS too.
--
"'Do not be afraid,' Samuel replied. 'You have done all this evil; yet do not turn away from the Lord, but serve the Lord with all your heart.'" --1 Samuel 12:20. Thank God 4 not going out 2day on a slammy Th.
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://aqfl.net & http://antfarm.home.dhs.org.
/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
| |o o| |
\ _ /
( )

On 2024-12-20 11:02, Andrew wrote:
> Arno Welzel wrote on Fri, 20 Dec 2024 10:53:49 +0100 :
>
>> On the other hand Apple customers don't care. They also don't care that
>> FaceTime is only possible with other Apple users. In the US iOS has a
>> market share of nearly 60% and the Android market share is declining
>> slowly:
>> <https://explodingtopics.com/blog/iphone-android-users>
>
> Given the US is only about half Android and yet the world is overwhelmingly
> Android, we all need to keep in mind Apple's vaunted "walled garden"
> doesn't work unless you have constant 24/7/365 Internet access which most
> of the world may not necessarily have.

For the record, my iPhone continues to work whether I'm connected to the
internet or not.

In misc.phone.mobile.iphone Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
> On 2024-12-20 11:02, Andrew wrote:
> > Arno Welzel wrote on Fri, 20 Dec 2024 10:53:49 +0100 :
> >
> >> On the other hand Apple customers don't care. They also don't care that
> >> FaceTime is only possible with other Apple users. In the US iOS has a
> >> market share of nearly 60% and the Android market share is declining
> >> slowly:
> >> <https://explodingtopics.com/blog/iphone-android-users>
> >
> > Given the US is only about half Android and yet the world is overwhelmingly
> > Android, we all need to keep in mind Apple's vaunted "walled garden"
> > doesn't work unless you have constant 24/7/365 Internet access which most
> > of the world may not necessarily have.

> For the record, my iPhone continues to work whether I'm connected to the
> internet or not.

Ditto. I put mine offline when not needed.
--
"'Do not be afraid,' Samuel replied. 'You have done all this evil; yet do not turn away from the Lord, but serve the Lord with all your heart.'" --1 Samuel 12:20. Thank God 4 not going out 2day on a slammy Th.
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://aqfl.net & http://antfarm.home.dhs.org.
/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
| |o o| |
\ _ /
( )

Ant wrote on Fri, 20 Dec 2024 19:17:36 +0000 :

>> For the record, my iPhone continues to work whether I'm connected to the
>> internet or not.
>
> Ditto. I put mine offline when not needed.

The iPhone is a dumb terminal - devoid of functionality if you don't log
into the Apple mainframe servers 24/7/365 just for basic functionality.

The funny thing is Apple users are clueless that they are logging into
Apple's mainframe servers 24/7/365 for all those "walled garden" goodies.

Ant... could you do all of us a small favor before you respond please?

1. First, log out of iMessages, the App Store, FaceTime, iCloud, etc.
2. Then try to access all those "walled-garden" goodies you love.

Tell us all how well that works out for you please.
Thanks!

On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 11:15:53 -0800, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote

>> Given the US is only about half Android and yet the world is overwhelmingly
>> Android, we all need to keep in mind Apple's vaunted "walled garden"
>> doesn't work unless you have constant 24/7/365 Internet access which most
>> of the world may not necessarily have.
>
> For the record, my iPhone continues to work whether I'm connected to the
> internet or not.

How do you install apps without logging into Apple's app store on the net?

Using <news:G1ednb-7Bb5NX_j6nZ2dnZfqn_rczs6s@earthlink.com>, Ant wrote:

>>>> On the other hand Apple customers don't care. They also don't care that
>>>> FaceTime is only possible with other Apple users. In the US iOS has a
>>>> market share of nearly 60% and the Android market share is declining
>>>> slowly:
>>>> <https://explodingtopics.com/blog/iphone-android-users>
>>>
>>> Given the US is only about half Android and yet the world is overwhelmingly
>>> Android, we all need to keep in mind Apple's vaunted "walled garden"
>>> doesn't work unless you have constant 24/7/365 Internet access which most
>>> of the world may not necessarily have.
>
>> For the record, my iPhone continues to work whether I'm connected to the
>> internet or not.
>
> Ditto. I put mine offline when not needed.

How can you send and receive group facetime messages to and from other
Apple users without logging into Apple's messaging servers on the Internet?

On 2024-12-20 21:47, Oliver wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 11:15:53 -0800, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote
>>> Given the US is only about half Android and yet the world is
>>> overwhelmingly
>>> Android, we all need to keep in mind Apple's vaunted "walled garden"
>>> doesn't work unless you have constant 24/7/365 Internet access which
>>> most
>>> of the world may not necessarily have.
>>
>> For the record, my iPhone continues to work whether I'm connected to
>> the internet or not.
>
> How do you install apps without logging into Apple's app store on the net?

Arlen, please... using multiple IDs in the same discussion is not polite.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 2024-12-20 12:01, Andrew wrote:
> Ant wrote on Fri, 20 Dec 2024 19:17:36 +0000 :
>
>>> For the record, my iPhone continues to work whether I'm connected to
>>> the internet or not.
>>
>> Ditto. I put mine offline when not needed.
>
> The iPhone is a dumb terminal - devoid of functionality if you don't log
> into the Apple mainframe servers 24/7/365 just for basic functionality.

This is completely false.

On 2024-12-20 12:50, david wrote:
> Using <news:G1ednb-7Bb5NX_j6nZ2dnZfqn_rczs6s@earthlink.com>, Ant wrote:
>
>>>>> On the other hand Apple customers don't care. They also don't care
>>>>> that
>>>>> FaceTime is only possible with other Apple users. In the US iOS has a
>>>>> market share of nearly 60% and the Android market share is
>>>>> declining slowly:
>>>>> <https://explodingtopics.com/blog/iphone-android-users>
>>>>
>>>> Given the US is only about half Android and yet the world is
>>>> overwhelmingly
>>>> Android, we all need to keep in mind Apple's vaunted "walled garden"
>>>> doesn't work unless you have constant 24/7/365 Internet access which
>>>> most
>>>> of the world may not necessarily have.
>>
>>> For the record, my iPhone continues to work whether I'm connected to
>>> the internet or not.
>>
>> Ditto. I put mine offline when not needed.
>
> How can you send and receive group facetime messages to and from other
> Apple users without logging into Apple's messaging servers on the Internet?

How can ANY smartphone do something that is INHERENTLY between different
devices without network access.

That's not the same as claiming it's a "dumb terminal" without network
access.

Looking at my home screen:

I can have on-phone contacts.

On-phone notes

On-phone reminders

The camera still takes pictures, and I can still view and edit them in
Photos.

My calculator still calculates.

The clock still tells time.

My on-phone music still plays.

And there are loads more apps and functionality that--

while requiring internet access

--in no way depend on being logged into ANYTHING Apple.

On 2024-12-20 12:47, Oliver wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 11:15:53 -0800, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote
>>> Given the US is only about half Android and yet the world is
>>> overwhelmingly
>>> Android, we all need to keep in mind Apple's vaunted "walled garden"
>>> doesn't work unless you have constant 24/7/365 Internet access which
>>> most
>>> of the world may not necessarily have.
>>
>> For the record, my iPhone continues to work whether I'm connected to
>> the internet or not.
>
> How do you install apps without logging into Apple's app store on the net?

Occasionally logging in to install an app isn't the same as the
"constant 24/7/365 Internet access" claim...

....now is it?