On 4/24/2024 6:55 PM, bad sector wrote:
> The net is full of people having issues with phones they only thought
> were OFF. My android Zflip is even worse that a simple conventional
> design. Most times I turn it OFF/ON to be sure, there being no obvious,
> bulletproof, always in your face, indication which should be a
> prerequisite.
>
>

Frankly I don't understand all this confusion. I have an Android
TCL Tracfone. If I press the power button it goes black but
can receive calls. I've turned off the screen. If I hold the power
button I get 3 options. One is to power off. I select that. It says
it's shutting down. I can then leave the phone in my glove
compartment for about 3 months without losing juice, and I'm
not being tracked. If I don't power down then I am tracked and
I think the battery lasts maybe 2 days. (I've only tried it once,
by accident. I never leave the power on except when making a call.)

To turn it on again I have to hold down the power button until it
vibrates, then wait for a Win98-style boot process.

Maybe it's different on some cellphones, or on iPhones? From the
posts here it sounds like all Androids work the same way that mine
does.

On 4/27/24 08:23, Newyana2 wrote:
> On 4/24/2024 6:55 PM, bad sector wrote:
>> The net is full of people having issues with phones they only thought
>> were OFF. My android Zflip is even worse that a simple conventional
>> design. Most times I turn it OFF/ON to be sure, there being no
>> obvious, bulletproof, always in your face, indication which should be
>> a prerequisite.
>
>  Frankly I don't understand all this confusion. I have an Android
> TCL Tracfone. If I press the power button it goes black but
> can receive calls. I've turned off the screen. If I hold the power
> button I get 3 options. One is to power off. I select that. It says
> it's shutting down. I can then leave the phone in my glove
> compartment for about 3 months without losing juice, and I'm
> not being tracked. If I don't power down then I am tracked and
> I think the battery lasts maybe 2 days. (I've only tried it once,
> by accident. I never leave the power on except when making a call.)
>
>   To turn it on again I have to hold down the power button until it
> vibrates, then wait for a Win98-style boot process.
>
>   Maybe it's different on some cellphones, or on iPhones? From the
> posts here it sounds like all Androids work the same way that mine
> does.

You may not understand it but the fact remains that there *is* a lot of
confusion and my take on it is that the reason for the confusion is
shitty design. There have been and continue occurring thousands of live
mic or phone incidents EVEN with well designed idiot-proof LOW-TECH
devices. Digital crap should have either a hard on/off switch that does
nothing else AND an easily removable battery. My flexphone has half a
dozen ways to be turned off and even when I will know them all by heart
they WILL NOT suffice. Having to trust that the OS has turned the mic or
itself off is not the answer; it's a bit like democracy where it isn't
the right or the wrong of the issue that decides but the will of the
user (illustration: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6S5q4bF6lac).

--
Oh Lord of the Keyrings on high, have I got bad news for you: the word
trust is nowhere to be found in my security dictionary.

On 4/28/2024 7:48 AM, bad sector wrote:

>
> You may not understand it but the fact remains that there *is* a lot of
> confusion and my take on it is that the reason for the confusion is
> shitty design. There have been and continue occurring thousands of live
> mic or phone incidents EVEN with well designed idiot-proof LOW-TECH
> devices. Digital crap should have either a hard on/off switch that does
> nothing else AND an easily removable battery. My flexphone has half a
> dozen ways to be turned off and even when I will know them all by heart
> they WILL NOT suffice. Having to trust that the OS has turned the mic or
> itself off is not the answer

I can understand the frustration. One reason that I don't normally
use a cellphone is because they're natural spyware devices. A second
reason is the complexity and lockdown. Both Google and Apple are
controlling their phones in ways that should be illegal. It's like buying
a toaster that only toasts Wonder Bread and calls home to report your
toasting operation... and that can't be disabled. Every time I turn my
cellphone on now I get a regular flurry of warnings that I should
enable Google something or other. That started when I accidentally
allowed it to update. It's a madhouse of commercial sleaze.

Another issue relating to your trouble is simply that no one really
wants to turn their cellphone off. So it's designed to require some effort.
Turned off, you can't get calls. I only turn mine on when I want to
make a call, and the battery charge lasts for months. But I don't know
anyone else who does that. Everyone I know leaves it on constantly,
letting it "sleep" when it's left idle. But cellphones don't actually
sleep.
Getting a call requires constant pings of nearby towers. So the cellphone
is always on. It's just the screen lights that go out.

Given that scenario, having the mic turned on, or other such
intrusions, are a security issue, not an on/off issue, under typical
usage conditions.

The ZFlip lists several methods to turn it off. But the first and
primary one is what people have been saying: "The easiest way
to turn off the Samsung Galaxy Z Flip 5 is to press and hold the
side and volume down buttons for about 3-5 seconds. When the
power settings show up, select Power off."

https://www.androidauthority.com/how-to-turn-off-samsung-galaxy-z-flip-5-3350350/

That's exactly how my TCL works. Though I only need to hold
the lower right button, whatever that's called. There's no ambiguity.
So the question is, do you REALLY want to turn it off? If so then you
can do that and not worry about the mic, but you won't receive
calls.

On 4/28/2024 7:48 AM, bad sector wrote:

>
> You may not understand it but the fact remains that there *is* a lot of
> confusion and my take on it is that the reason for the confusion is
> shitty design. There have been and continue occurring thousands of live
> mic or phone incidents EVEN with well designed idiot-proof LOW-TECH
> devices. Digital crap should have either a hard on/off switch that does
> nothing else AND an easily removable battery. My flexphone has half a
> dozen ways to be turned off and even when I will know them all by heart
> they WILL NOT suffice. Having to trust that the OS has turned the mic or
> itself off is not the answer

I can understand the frustration. One reason that I don't normally
use a cellphone is because they're natural spyware devices. A second
reason is the complexity and lockdown. Both Google and Apple are
controlling their phones in ways that should be illegal. It's like buying
a toaster that only toasts Wonder Bread and calls home to report your
toasting operation... and that can't be disabled. Every time I turn my
cellphone on now I get a regular flurry of warnings that I should
enable Google something or other. That started when I accidentally
allowed it to update. It's a madhouse of commercial sleaze.

Another issue relating to your trouble is simply that no one really
wants to turn their cellphone off. So it's designed to require some effort.
Turned off, you can't get calls. I only turn mine on when I want to
make a call, and the battery charge lasts for months. But I don't know
anyone else who does that. Everyone I know leaves it on constantly,
letting it "sleep" when it's left idle. But cellphones don't actually
sleep.
Getting a call requires constant pings of nearby towers. So the cellphone
is always on. It's just the screen lights that go out.

Given that scenario, having the mic turned on, or other such
intrusions, are a security issue, not an on/off issue, under typical
usage conditions.

The ZFlip lists several methods to turn it off. But the first and
primary one is what people have been saying: "The easiest way
to turn off the Samsung Galaxy Z Flip 5 is to press and hold the
side and volume down buttons for about 3-5 seconds. When the
power settings show up, select Power off."

https://www.androidauthority.com/how-to-turn-off-samsung-galaxy-z-flip-5-3350350/

That's exactly how my TCL works. Though I only need to hold
the lower right button, whatever that's called. There's no ambiguity.
So the question is, do you REALLY want to turn it off? If so then you
can do that and not worry about the mic, but you won't receive
calls.

On 28.04.24 14:56, Newyana2 wrote:
> On 4/28/2024 7:48 AM, bad sector wrote:
>
>>
>> You may not understand it but the fact remains that there *is* a lot of
>> confusion and my take on it is that the reason for the confusion is
>> shitty design. There have been and continue occurring thousands of live
>> mic or phone incidents EVEN with well designed idiot-proof LOW-TECH
>> devices. Digital crap should have either a hard on/off switch that does
>> nothing else AND an easily removable battery. My flexphone has half a
>> dozen ways to be turned off and even when I will know them all by heart
>> they WILL NOT suffice. Having to trust that the OS has turned the mic or
>> itself off is not the answer
>
> I can understand the frustration. One reason that I don't normally
> use a cellphone is because they're natural spyware devices. A second
> reason is the complexity and lockdown.

Why are you writing in this group?
You are lacking any credibility. And you try to spread conspiracy
theories of the worst kind like the thread starter.

--
"Alea iacta est." (Julius Caesar)

On 4/28/2024 10:00 AM, Jörg Lorenz wrote:

> Why are you writing in this group?
> You are lacking any credibility. And you try to spread conspiracy
> theories of the worst kind like the thread starter.
>

No point in shooting the messenger. If you use
a cellphone turned on then you ARE being tracked.
Many of the apps can't be removed. Downloading of
updates can't be stopped as far as I know. What functions
can be controlled are very difficult to find. So it would
take a great deal of expertise to really control a cellphone.

This is not about conspiracy theories. There are two major
cellphone OS makers. Google and Apple. Both tightly
control the product. Both have long histories of greed and
dishonesty. Google is primarily an advertising
and data collection company. Many cellphone apps make
money by selling personal data, because no one wants to
pay for apps.

So before posting hysterical accusations,
maybe read up on the facts for yourself. But I can see
from your other posts that you like to argue and insult
people, so maybe you really don't want to know facts.
Facts can be a very pesky obstacle to indignant dogma. :)

On 28.04.24 18:21, Newyana2 wrote:
> On 4/28/2024 10:00 AM, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>
>> Why are you writing in this group?
>> You are lacking any credibility. And you try to spread conspiracy
>> theories of the worst kind like the thread starter.
>>
>
> No point in shooting the messenger. If you use
> a cellphone turned on then you ARE being tracked.

How do you think your service provider could bill you otherwise correctly?

> Many of the apps can't be removed. Downloading of
> updates can't be stopped as far as I know. What functions

Sure they can be stopped.

> can be controlled are very difficult to find. So it would
> take a great deal of expertise to really control a cellphone.

You better do not use one.

> This is not about conspiracy theories. There are two major
> cellphone OS makers. Google and Apple. Both tightly
> control the product. Both have long histories of greed and
> dishonesty. Google is primarily an advertising
> and data collection company. Many cellphone apps make
> money by selling personal data, because no one wants to
> pay for apps.

Do you have material news or something that is not known for at least 20
years?

> So before posting hysterical accusations,
> maybe read up on the facts for yourself. But I can see
> from your other posts that you like to argue and insult
> people, so maybe you really don't want to know facts.
> Facts can be a very pesky obstacle to indignant dogma. :)

*You* are dogmatic. You state you have no knowledge about smartphones
which I have to admit is obvious. Why are you posting such trivial
things which are at least partially wrong in a technical group?

--
"Alea iacta est." (Julius Caesar)

On 4/28/2024 12:46 PM, Jörg Lorenz wrote:

> *You* are dogmatic. You state you have no knowledge about smartphones
> which I have to admit is obvious. Why are you posting such trivial
> things which are at least partially wrong in a technical group?
>
As I thought. You're bitter and just want to argue.
I'm sorry that life is not oging well for you, but no one
benefits from an insult contest.

On 28.04.24 21:40, Newyana2 wrote:
> On 4/28/2024 12:46 PM, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>
>> *You* are dogmatic. You state you have no knowledge about smartphones
>> which I have to admit is obvious. Why are you posting such trivial
>> things which are at least partially wrong in a technical group?
>>
> As I thought. You're bitter and just want to argue.
> I'm sorry that life is not oging well for you, but no one
> benefits from an insult contest.

You are contributing nothing of value. Sorry, dear. I do not insult you.
I tell you the "truth" and plain facts. And for years you are telling
the same trivial things.

--
"Alea iacta est." (Julius Caesar)

On 4/28/24 08:57, Newyana2 wrote:
> On 4/28/2024 7:48 AM, bad sector wrote:
>
>>
>> You may not understand it but the fact remains that there *is* a lot
>> of confusion and my take on it is that the reason for the confusion is
>> shitty design. There have been and continue occurring thousands of
>> live mic or phone incidents EVEN with well designed idiot-proof
>> LOW-TECH devices. Digital crap should have either a hard on/off switch
>> that does nothing else AND an easily removable battery. My flexphone
>> has half a dozen ways to be turned off and even when I will know them
>> all by heart they WILL NOT suffice. Having to trust that the OS has
>> turned the mic or itself off is not the answer
>
>    I can understand the frustration. One reason that I don't normally
> use a cellphone is because they're natural spyware devices. A second
> reason is the complexity and lockdown. Both Google and Apple are
> controlling their phones in ways that should be illegal. It's like buying
> a toaster that only toasts Wonder Bread and calls home to report your
> toasting operation... and that can't be disabled. Every time I turn my
> cellphone on now I get a regular flurry of warnings that I should
> enable Google something or other. That started when I accidentally
> allowed it to update. It's a madhouse of commercial sleaze.
>
>   Another issue relating to your trouble is simply that no one really
> wants to turn their cellphone off. So it's designed to require some effort.
> Turned off, you can't get calls. I only turn mine on when I want to
> make a call, and the battery charge lasts for months. But I don't know
> anyone else who does that. Everyone I know leaves it on constantly,
>  letting it "sleep" when it's left idle. But cellphones don't actually
> sleep.
> Getting a call requires constant pings of nearby towers. So the cellphone
> is always on. It's just the screen lights that go out.
>
>   Given that scenario, having the mic turned on, or other such
> intrusions, are a security issue, not an on/off issue, under typical
> usage conditions.
>
>   The ZFlip lists several methods to turn it off. But the first and
> primary one is what people have been saying: "The easiest way
> to turn off the Samsung Galaxy Z Flip 5 is to press and hold the
> side and volume down buttons for about 3-5 seconds. When the
> power settings show up, select Power off."
>
> https://www.androidauthority.com/how-to-turn-off-samsung-galaxy-z-flip-5-3350350/

I know how to turn it off, for a number of reasons I finally settled on
the 3-step sequence beginning with sliding down the home page to the
notifications page. The entire OS sucks, being incoherent from A to Z.

>  That's exactly how my TCL works. Though I only need to hold
> the lower right button, whatever that's called. There's no ambiguity.
> So the question is, do you REALLY want to turn it off? If so then you
> can do that and not worry about the mic, but you won't receive
> calls.

Not concerned about not receiving any calls, I've had enough spam
in the few months since I bought this zFlip5 to warrant just asking
callers to send me either a texto or an email. I'm actually looking for
a way to get my provider to not forward any voice messages at all
BEGINNING with their own fucking voice-mail or texto spam. Anyway, not
to diverge into futile tergiversation what interest me is not only ease
of turning off, a hard OFF switch and one-hand battery removal but
EQUALLY instant and unmistakable feedback confirming whenever the unit
is powered but in fact OFF.

On 4/28/24 10:00, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
> On 28.04.24 14:56, Newyana2 wrote:
>> On 4/28/2024 7:48 AM, bad sector wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> You may not understand it but the fact remains that there *is* a lot of
>>> confusion and my take on it is that the reason for the confusion is
>>> shitty design. There have been and continue occurring thousands of live
>>> mic or phone incidents EVEN with well designed idiot-proof LOW-TECH
>>> devices. Digital crap should have either a hard on/off switch that does
>>> nothing else AND an easily removable battery. My flexphone has half a
>>> dozen ways to be turned off and even when I will know them all by heart
>>> they WILL NOT suffice. Having to trust that the OS has turned the mic or
>>> itself off is not the answer
>>
>> I can understand the frustration. One reason that I don't normally
>> use a cellphone is because they're natural spyware devices. A second
>> reason is the complexity and lockdown.
>
> Why are you writing in this group?
> You are lacking any credibility. And you try to spread conspiracy
> theories of the worst kind like the thread starter.

I get a kick out of barbie-boys living in la-la land; if more positive
and verifiable device controls including easy battery removal are not a
serious threat to the snooping scum of the earth then why do they shriek
in panic as if the offender had just killed their mother every time one
mentions such changes? Why would easily removable batteries be such a
bogeyman to some who claim to have no use for them if others do? Are
they paranoid and fear that the batteries might pop out and never come
back? The digital giants need to be trimmed back in terms of yards, not
millimeters; so far legislation is scarce partly because legislators are
traditionally just barely on the legal side of the septic tank and know
shit about technology ...but the situation is evolving, they comply
with the public will or soon enter oblivion.

--
“The society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its
thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools.”
― Thucydides