Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>On 2024-11-23 15:20, Joel wrote:
>> Isaac Montara <IsaacMontara@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Windows 10 released June 2015 so it is supported for over ten years.
>>> Microsoft full hotfix support currently is for two concurrent releases.
>>
>> It should be noted that Windows 10 in 2015 was nothing, *NOTHING* like
>> it is now, it was a minor upgrade to Win8.1, initially, but now is
>> practically as bloated as Win11. M$ doesn't care about you.
>
>I'd like to see your support for the claim that:
>
>"it [Windows 10] was a minor upgrade to Win8.1"

Uh, I had Windows 8.x and early Windows 10 on my old computer. I know
what the fuck I'm talking about, that's why I'm reading this thread in
COLA, where we debate OSes.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On 11/23/24 2:31 PM, Joel wrote:
> -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:
>> On 11/23/24 11:35 AM, Andrew wrote:
>>> Joel wrote on Sat, 23 Nov 2024 11:17:49 -0500 :
>>>
>>>>> As I said, my desktop is from 2009 and it runs Windows 10 just fine.
>>>>> This is well known information as I've posted using it for years.
>>>>
>>>> You have low standards.
>>
>> It merely depends on what & where one chooses to make a priority.
>
>
> I saw 20H2 on my old machine, assembled in 2010, first gen i5. I
> never even got to the point of installing it on an SSD for it, I had
> given up on the idea for other reasons by then. Mint was great,
> briefly, on the SSD, I had the system as refreshed as could be, maxed
> at 16 GB RAM with a SATA SSD, great old machine for Linux, but Win10
> would've sucked even with all that.

Okay, so how much did it cost you in 2010, and when did you abandon its
original configuration to switch it over to Mint?

That's enough to provide a baseline "value" metric on your IT costs.

-hh

Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>On 2024-11-23 17:18, Joel wrote:
>> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>>> On 2024-11-23 15:20, Joel wrote:
>>>> Isaac Montara <IsaacMontara@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Windows 10 released June 2015 so it is supported for over ten years.
>>>>> Microsoft full hotfix support currently is for two concurrent releases.
>>>>
>>>> It should be noted that Windows 10 in 2015 was nothing, *NOTHING* like
>>>> it is now, it was a minor upgrade to Win8.1, initially, but now is
>>>> practically as bloated as Win11. M$ doesn't care about you.
>>>
>>> I'd like to see your support for the claim that:
>>>
>>> "it [Windows 10] was a minor upgrade to Win8.1"
>>
>> Uh, I had Windows 8.x and early Windows 10 on my old computer. I know
>> what the fuck I'm talking about, that's why I'm reading this thread in
>> COLA, where we debate OSes.
>
>So what you have is purely a personal anecdote.
>
>Got it.

No, it's not an anecdote. I was a comp sci major, while I was in
college. I pay attention to finer details. I know what Windows 10
was in 2015, vs. 2020 and later.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

pothead wrote on Sun, 24 Nov 2024 01:49:13 -0000 (UTC) :

>> I've used all the common consumer operating systems, and I agree that the
>> Linux and Windows and Android systems give the user choice & functionality.
>
> Same.

Good. As I own a half dozen iPhones & iPads and as many Androids, plus
Windows and Linux (generally set up as dual boot) and I've "owned" macs but
you do not want to hear me discuss macOS for two reasons, only one of which
is that I have nothing good to say about it - but the other is that I admit
I haven't touched a mac in about two or three years so they may have
changed a lot since I last wanted to throw it out the fifth-floor window.

>> Most of what you refer to as "OS wars" are really from the Apple trolls
>> spewing (brilliant) Apple propaganda such as "it just works" lies.
>
> Every OS has issues.
> There is no exception.

This is true. But there's a HUGE DIFFERENCE in the user base for each.

In general... Linux users know what it is that sits on their desk.
a. They're competent.
b. Particularly the Linux users who post to Linux Usenet newsgroups.

Windows users fall into two fundamental categories
a. Users who are competent (which is most who post to Usenet ngs).
b. But there are far more Windows users who are technically clueless.

Apple users are strange people because they buy based on herd mentality.
a. Almost zero Apple users are competent for that very reason
b. Certanily none of the Apple trolls who post to Usenet are competent
c. You can tell because they only spew baseless Apple propaganda

While Apple propaganda is much like Russian propaganda where only the
ignorant parrot it back - you'll find the Apple troll who posts to Usenet
is like the Russian troll who claims Nazi Banderites are why they're in
Ukraine.

My point is very clear that the Apple troll who posts to Usenet is not a
normal person - they're very strange herd animals who are technically
incompetent - but they're so Dunning Kruger Mount Stupid that they don't
even realize how incompetent they are because they KNOW all the Apple
propaganda - so they spit it out.

Hence... the "OS Wars" someone spoke of occur because these Apple trolls
are so technically ignorant they don't even know that Apple only fully
supports a single release - and that Apple has NEVER fully supported more
than a single release.

They don't know Apple iPhones have the smallest batteries in the industry
such that the EU told Apple that next year Apple can no longer sell an
iPhone in the EU that doesn't meet modern battery lifetime specifications.

Which almost all of Apple's current iPhones do NOT meet, by the way.

These Apple users are so clueless that they parrot Apple propaganda that
the iPhone is "safer" and yet they're clueless that no phone has more
zero-day holes than the iPhone, nor more active exploits than the iPhone.

All of this comes as a surprise to the Apple trolls who post to Usenet
simply because they are all completely incompetent technically.

That's what separates the Apple posters from the normal adults on this ng.

>> Try to get a system firewall to "just work" on an iOS device. It just
>> doesn't work. Same with Wi-Fi & cellular debugging tools. They don't work.
>
> The walled garden.
> Do it as Apple want or go away.

It's even worse than that since most people don't realize that the iDevice
is a "dumb terminal" since all of the nice things the Apple lovers love
about the walled garden happen on Cupertino mainframe servers.

Without logging into the mainframe, the Apple dumb terminal devices can't
do anything (they can't even message the way they like or install apps).

No other common consumer operating system requires you to log into their OS
vendor's mainframes every moment of your life just to use the device.

Just Apple.

>> Try to plug in your wired headphones to the expensive Apple gear.
>> Again, it stands no chance of working.
>
> Apple keeps redefining connectivity to stay one step ahead of the
> competition.
> It's getting insane.

Apple *removed* the 3.5mm jack to limit the users' choice which in the end
makes lots of money for Apple because now the users have to figure out how
to buy that lost functionality back (often using Apple products to do it).

Apple's business stratey has always been to remove functionality so that
you're restricted in your choices in how you have to buy it back.

Witness Apple never putting in the portable memory slot where if you needed
an extra 128GB of memory, you have to buy it back somehow - but you can't
just pop in a cheap $25 128GB expansion card because Apple negates the
cheap choice. Only the expensive choices remain - which is Apple's
strategy.

Note how much money Apple made selling wireless chargers just by removing
the PD charger from the box - telling people it's "green" for them to have
to buy a wireless or wired) PD charger from Apple (or Amazon) instead of
getting it from the box like every other company did until Apple removed
that functionality from the box.

Apple removes functionality so that you have to buy it back, preferably
from Apple (where they'll give you all the advice you need to do that).

>> Interestingly, since I test things as a hobby, try NOT logging into your
>> Apple gear while using it every day - and two years later - like clockwork
>> Apple will unilaterally *brick* your iOS device - where you *must* waltz
>> into an Apple store to shows your government issue ID just to unlock it.
>> <https://i.postimg.cc/FHKHm9kD/locked01.jpg> Apple requires frequent login
>> <https://i.postimg.cc/WzjsyjPm/locked02.jpg> Some things still work
>> <https://i.postimg.cc/MGC6yVPF/locked03.jpg> But the walled garden stops
>
> I have not seen this one on my watch and iPhone but I'll take your word for it.

Oh, I've tested it. For years. I have plenty of iOS devices in front of me,
as I'm running the test on a new iPad as we speak. Like clockwork, after
two years of setting up an Apple ID and NOT logging in again - Apple will
unilaterally brick your device until you physically go into an Apple store
and provide your government issue ID and prove it's you.

How's that for Apple's "privacy" propaganda?

Speaking of Apple's privacy propaganda, are you aware that it is impossible
(as of February 2023) to create a new Apple ID without setting up 2FV with
Apple and that this 2FV is forever. Yup. Forever. Only Apple forces that.

Nobody else takes your privacy like Apple does - but notice that the
(brilliant) Apple propaganda never mentions that this is a fact.

You can't even *re-use* an older phone number without providing Apple with
your identity - which proves Apple's privacy propaganda is a falsity.
*Piece of shit iOS has absolutely zero privacy for God's sake*
<https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=17771&group=misc.phone.mobile.iphone#17771>

Don't believe me? Look at this proof taken just last week for you:
<https://i.postimg.cc/VvtMXcL2/noprivacy01.jpg>
<https://i.postimg.cc/HLjrQC63/noprivacy02.jpg>
<https://i.postimg.cc/P57XnvMz/noprivacy03.jpg>
<https://i.postimg.cc/TPSp0HSx/noprivacy04.jpg>
<https://i.postimg.cc/1XWx0bCc/noprivacy05.jpg>
<https://i.postimg.cc/6Q7Q8fQm/noprivacy06.jpg>
<https://i.postimg.cc/bYRqNBTv/noprivacy07.jpg>

The Apple trolls are Alan Browne, Jolly Roger, Alan Baker, Alan Browne,
Chris, Haemactylus, Joerg Lorenz, Your Name, et al. who know nothing about
Apple products.

None of them realize only Apple forces you to trade your privacy for the
privilege of installing apps.
<https://i.postimg.cc/hvhgB91S/update01.jpg> iPadOS 16.3.1 is available
<https://i.postimg.cc/Qtfsw654/update02.jpg> 16.3.1 Update Requested
<https://i.postimg.cc/vmLGL8md/update03.jpg> About 10 minutes remaining
<https://i.postimg.cc/d11gkJk6/update04.jpg> Preparing Update
<https://i.postimg.cc/rw1B7n21/update05.jpg> Downloaded
<https://i.postimg.cc/yN7MKm7w/update06.jpg> Finish Setting Up iPad
<https://i.postimg.cc/13DSsRwN/update07.jpg> More for your iPad
<https://i.postimg.cc/Xv80B22j/update08.jpg> Update Apple ID Settings
<https://i.postimg.cc/TYLGNJP0/update09.jpg> iPadOS Version 16.3.1
<https://i.postimg.cc/L509Yy8Y/update10.jpg> Sign in to iCloud
<https://i.postimg.cc/zvfDfm8Y/update11.jpg> Finished Setting up iPad
<https://i.postimg.cc/Z5Nbnxtn/update12.jpg> Verifying update...

Microsoft doesn't do that.
Neither does Google.

Just Apple.

That's a fact.

>> The Apple trolls don't know any of this because they only know what Apple's
>> (rather brilliant) marketing feeds them to know (i.e., Apple propaganda).
>
> Sure.
> How else can they get drones camping out in front of Apple stores to get the
> latest release?
> It's all hype.

On 11/23/24 6:58 PM, Bill Powell wrote:
> On 11/23/2024 12:58 PM, -hh wrote:
>
>>> And they have no idea that Apple has the worst hotfix support in the
>>> industry, and while Linux hotfix support is also good, Microsoft rocks.
>>
>> Different product use cases on uptime requirements.  Plus from an IT
>> Security perspective, isn't there also a trade-off here too?
>
> Why do iPhones always have more 0-day holes than Android if it's so secure?
> https://www.cisa.gov/known-exploited-vulnerabilities-catalog

Motivation/incentives play a big part:

“Because that's where the money is”
-Willie Sutton

-hh

On 11/23/24 3:18 PM, chrisv wrote:
> Alan wrote:
>> Joel wrote:
>>> Alan wrote:
>>>> Joel wrote:
>>>>> Apple is the enemy, to be blunt.
>>>>
>>>> In what sense?
>>>> Who or what are the the enemy OF?
>>>
>>> People who like getting value for money.
>
> They are a fine value, for some fraction of the market.
>
>> The very fact that Apple's customer loyalty is absolutely outstanding
>> suggests that people think they offer excellent value for money.
>
> Some idiots just don't "get" the need for choice, and that all
> products that remain viable in a market are, by definition, the "best
> value" for some fraction the market.

Agreed. By a 'some fraction of the market' metric, marketshare shows
that on the desktop, Apple provides a healthy amount of choice (and
value) versus Microsoft.

Its been years since I've even bothered to look these up:

Worldwide marketshares of desktop OSs is 73% Win - 16% Mac
(remaining 10% is Chrome+Linux+Unknown, roughly evenly split).
Similarly, for USA, its 62% Win - 25% Mac.

Source:
<https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide/#monthly-202310-202410>

<https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/united-states-of-america/#monthly-202310-202410>

> That includes desktop Linux, of course.

Pedantically sure, but at just 4% (& dropped to 4th place overall),
desktop Linux is pragmatically almost irrelevant.

-hh

On 2024-11-23 23:01:55 +0000, Isaac Montara said:

> On Sun, 24 Nov 2024 11:07:53 +1300, Your Name wrote:
>
>>>> Microsoft's hotfix support for Windows is the best in the industry.
>>>
>>> Arch Linux user: <laughs>
>>>
>>> Samsung tablet/phone user: <chuckles>
>>>
>>> <redneck groups snipped>
>>
>> If Microsloth's hotfix was the best, it would be because they get
>> *plenty* of practice because Windoze needs an update every other day.
>>
>> Of course, the reality is that Microsloth's hotfix patches are just as
>> hopelessly awful as everything else they do. In this case "practice
>> does NOT make perfect".
>
> Windows 10 released June 2015 so it is supported for over ten years.
> Microsoft full hotfix support currently is for two concurrent releases.
>
> Samsung & Google full hotfix support is 7 years, up to seven releases.
> Apple's hotfix support is never more than one release at a time, 5 years.
>
> Simple question. Which of those is the shortest & least number of releases?

Another nymchange by the idiot troll. :-\

Alan wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:

> On 2024-11-23 14:05, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>> Klaus Schadenfreude wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:
>>
>>> [Default] Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> typed:
>>>
>>>> Andrew <andys@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> my desktop is from 2009 and it currently has Windows 10 on it,
>>>>> where I've had full hotfix support since then for no additional cost.
>>>>
>>>> Oh sure, a 2009 model desktop will run Win10 in its current iterations
>>>> just peachy, give me a break. You need an NVMe drive, realistically,
>>>> even a SATA SSD on a machine that old is gonna suck balls. You're
>>>> kidding yourself, to believe M$ gives a shit about you. Linux FTW.
>>>
>>> And then you can take advantage of the 100 shitty Linux apps out
>>> there, or run crippled versions of Windows apps using Wine!
>>>
>>> ROFLMAO
>>
>> There are far more shitty Windows apps.
>
> When there are far more apps overall, there are going to be more shitty
> ones as well.
>
> :-)
>
>> Anyway, I do what I do, on Linux, no Wine. I do boot to Windows to make sure my
>> code runs on it as well.
>>
> Sure. And those who are technically versed and willing to spend more
> time on setting up the system can use Linux and be happy.

You can buy computers with Linux pre-installed, e.g. from System76.

But hey, stick with Windows if you want. Just don't slag on people who
use Linux.

--
A man sank into the psychiatrist's couch and said, "I have a
terrible problem, Doctor. I have a son at Harvard and another son at
Princeton; I've just gifted each of them with a new Ferrari; I've got
homes in Beverly Hills, Palm Beach, and a co-op in New York; and I've
got a thriving ranch in Venezuela. My wife is a gorgeous young actress
who considers my two mistresses to be her best friends."
The psychiatrist looked at the patient, confused. "Did I miss
something? It sounds to me like you have no problems at all."
"But, Doctor, I only make $175 a week."

On 23 Nov 2024, -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> posted some
news:vhu5jl$2348d$1@dont-email.me:

> On 11/23/24 3:18 PM, chrisv wrote:
>> Alan wrote:
>>> Joel wrote:
>>>> Alan wrote:
>>>>> Joel wrote:
>>>>>> Apple is the enemy, to be blunt.
>>>>>
>>>>> In what sense?
>>>>> Who or what are the the enemy OF?
>>>>
>>>> People who like getting value for money.
>>
>> They are a fine value, for some fraction of the market.
>>
>>> The very fact that Apple's customer loyalty is absolutely
>>> outstanding suggests that people think they offer excellent value
>>> for money.
>>
>> Some idiots just don't "get" the need for choice, and that all
>> products that remain viable in a market are, by definition, the "best
>> value" for some fraction the market.
>
> Agreed. By a 'some fraction of the market' metric, marketshare shows
> that on the desktop, Apple provides a healthy amount of choice (and
> value) versus Microsoft.
>
> Its been years since I've even bothered to look these up:
>
> Worldwide marketshares of desktop OSs is 73% Win - 16% Mac
> (remaining 10% is Chrome+Linux+Unknown, roughly evenly split).
> Similarly, for USA, its 62% Win - 25% Mac.
>
> Source:
><https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide/#monthly-2
>02310-202410>
>
><https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/united-states-of-ame
>rica/#monthly-202310-202410>
>
>> That includes desktop Linux, of course.
>
> Pedantically sure, but at just 4% (& dropped to 4th place overall),
> desktop Linux is pragmatically almost irrelevant.

Not if your applications are web served, then the desktop platform becomes
irrelevant. There's little difference between Windows and Linux in that
sense. On the flip side, Apple's crappy Safari browser won't work well
with some major CRM platforms and results in Firefox or Chrome
installations just so people can work.

On 11/24/24 6:53 AM, ILikeSushiRolls wrote:
> On 23 Nov 2024, -hh wrote:
>> ...
>>
>> Agreed. By a 'some fraction of the market' metric, marketshare shows
>> that on the desktop, Apple provides a healthy amount of choice (and
>> value) versus Microsoft.
>>
>> Its been years since I've even bothered to look these up:
>>
>> Worldwide marketshares of desktop OSs is 73% Win - 16% Mac
>> (remaining 10% is Chrome+Linux+Unknown, roughly evenly split).
>> Similarly, for USA, its 62% Win - 25% Mac.
>>
>> ...
>>
>>> That includes desktop Linux, of course.
>>
>> Pedantically sure, but at just 4% (& dropped to 4th place overall),
>> desktop Linux is pragmatically almost irrelevant.
>
> Not if your applications are web served, then the desktop platform becomes
> irrelevant.

Sure, but the market still isn't buying thin client PCs. It looks to be
more that since stuff like web portals are a 'thin'-esque hardware
demand that OS choice has become less important, and this OS marketshare
data shows us that that Apple's has benefited (growth to 25%) far more
than Linux (4% from 2%).

> There's little difference between Windows and Linux in that
> sense. On the flip side, Apple's crappy Safari browser won't work well
> with some major CRM platforms and results in Firefox or Chrome
> installations just so people can work.

Personally, I can't recall the last time that I had any sort of "Safari
problem" accessing a webpage.

And even if I did, Firefox & Chrome browser Apps are on MacOS, so how do
they not solve this alleged problem for the IT niche of CRM?

-hh

-hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:
>On 11/23/24 8:13 PM, Joel wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I have 32 GB RAM and a 1 TB NVMe drive, admittedly my CPU is older,
>>>> but one doesn't always need more horsepower, I didn't break the bank
>>>> to get what I have.
>>>
>>> Except that suitability depends on what one's use case is, and it
>>> doesn't matter if we're talking about PCs or cars, or whatever.
>>>
>>> So yeah, if you're just drooling on USENET, then a 2017 vintage Mac
>>> laptop would do you perfectly fine ... I'll sell you one for $199.
>>>
>>> OTOH, if your work products merit completing them in a timely fashion,
>>> then computers are just like race cars: "Speed cost money. How fast can
>>> you afford to go?"
>>
>> My CPU is a 2020 model, 10th gen Intel. My motherboard can accept
>> 10th or 11th gen CPUs.
>
>A "10th gen" Intel CPU would be 'Comet Lake' and there's many variations
>therein .. from an Xeon or i9 all the way down to Celeron (its below the
>i3 and Pentium Gold) .. so which one does your "high-end" system have?
>
>Here's the list:
><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comet_Lake>
>
>And how does it benchmark against the Mac Studio that you've mentioned?
>
>I'll cut you a break by choosing the lowest end CPU ever sold in the
>Studio: the M1 Max cored 2,418 single-core and 12,629 for multi-core in
>the Geekbench 6 CPU Benchmark. FYI, the current model with the upper
>tier M2 Ultra is single-core 2,819 & multi-core 21,802.

It's an i5-10400, not the most high-end piece of the puzzle, that'd be
the motherboard and power supply about equally so, but for my purposes
it's as good as I really need. And could be replaced with an 11th gen
i7, for example, without needing a different motherboard, although I'd
need RAM to match it, too.

>>>>>>>> I paid less to get high-end gear.
>>>
>>> Please remind me: just what's the specs of this claimed "high-end" gear?
>>
>> I have a Gigabyte AORUS motherboard, not some no-name junk that you'd
>> get in a prefab box on Newegg for a hot price, ...
>
>Sorry, doesn't mean much to me: what's its salient characteristics
>which relate to it being "high-end"? For example, is it PCI5 or 4?

It's meant for elite gaming systems, I wanted it for the
expandability, bragging rights, reliability over time.

>> ... I have a WD Blue NVMe drive, quality components through and through.
>
>I think you mentioned that its 1TB, right? And since you didn't mention
>it, I'm assuming the motherboard has it as a PCI4 single slot, so no
>boot drive RAID0 configuration. So then what does that benchmark at in,
>say, Blackmagic's Disk Speed Test software?
>
>How much above 7,000 MB/sec does it run while comparing it to the
>Studio? After all, you did claim "high-end", so you certainly must have
>done some confirmation testing rather than to just "trust me" assume.

It's one of the better models from its time, there certainly are
faster models today with today's motherboards.

>> You have to assemble
>> your own hardware, to get a good value. Apple and other higher-end
>> OEMs are gouging the crap out of people.
>
>There are some profit-centers to avoid for sure, but the adage of a DIY
>"White Box" generic PCs must always be profoundly cheaper is obsolete:
>a former (now retired) colleague used to run a side business where he
>fabricated "White Box" generic PCs to sell at a discount, but he shut
>down that business close to 20 years ago now, because he found that the
>competition within the OEM's resulted in narrow enough margins such that
>he wasn't really making money for his efforts...IIRC, he shut it down
>when it dropped below $50/unit for all of his assembly time.

To get my computer, at the time I bought the parts, preassembled,
would cost a fortune. To get a seemingly comparable one, you'd at
best get some less than comparable parts. The only way to maximize
value is to self-assemble.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On 11/24/24 7:59 AM, Joel wrote:
> -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:
>> On 11/23/24 8:13 PM, Joel wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I have 32 GB RAM and a 1 TB NVMe drive, admittedly my CPU is older,
>>>>> but one doesn't always need more horsepower, I didn't break the bank
>>>>> to get what I have.
>>>>
>>>> Except that suitability depends on what one's use case is, and it
>>>> doesn't matter if we're talking about PCs or cars, or whatever.
>>>>
>>>> So yeah, if you're just drooling on USENET, then a 2017 vintage Mac
>>>> laptop would do you perfectly fine ... I'll sell you one for $199.
>>>>
>>>> OTOH, if your work products merit completing them in a timely fashion,
>>>> then computers are just like race cars: "Speed cost money. How fast can
>>>> you afford to go?"
>>>
>>> My CPU is a 2020 model, 10th gen Intel. My motherboard can accept
>>> 10th or 11th gen CPUs.
>>
>> A "10th gen" Intel CPU would be 'Comet Lake' and there's many variations
>> therein .. from an Xeon or i9 all the way down to Celeron (its below the
>> i3 and Pentium Gold) .. so which one does your "high-end" system have?
>>
>> Here's the list:
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comet_Lake>
>>
>> And how does it benchmark against the Mac Studio that you've mentioned?
>>
>> I'll cut you a break by choosing the lowest end CPU ever sold in the
>> Studio: the M1 Max cored 2,418 single-core and 12,629 for multi-core in
>> the Geekbench 6 CPU Benchmark. FYI, the current model with the upper
>> tier M2 Ultra is single-core 2,819 & multi-core 21,802.
>
> It's an i5-10400, not the most high-end piece of the puzzle, that'd be
> the motherboard and power supply about equally so, but for my purposes
> it's as good as I really need.

Looks like the i5-10400 has a Geekbench of 1446 single and 5535
multi-core, which is 40%-60% lower than the original Mac Studio, so call
it as roughly "half the horsepower".

> And could be replaced with an 11th gen
> i7, for example, without needing a different motherboard, although I'd
> need RAM to match it, too.

Browsing Geekbench to find parity to the original Studio I mentioned, I
found some Intel Core i9's that are in the Studio's ballpark (eg, 24
core 13900 at 2827/16625)...but I don't know if it is socket-compatible.
In any event, the i9-13900 24 core CPU retails for $542 on Amazon
today, so that probably is close to what would notionally need to be
added to however much you paid (which was how much?) to have rough CPU
hardware parity to the original Studio for purposes of a value
comparison. Sure, it would be nice if Apple sold more lower-end
products, but you chose the Studio, so its what we're stuck with in a
comparison.

>>>>>>>>> I paid less to get high-end gear.
>>>>
>>>> Please remind me: just what's the specs of this claimed "high-end" gear?
>>>
>>> I have a Gigabyte AORUS motherboard, not some no-name junk that you'd
>>> get in a prefab box on Newegg for a hot price, ...
>>
>> Sorry, doesn't mean much to me: what's its salient characteristics
>> which relate to it being "high-end"? For example, is it PCI5 or 4?
>
> It's meant for elite gaming systems, I wanted it for the
> expandability, bragging rights, reliability over time.

Bragging rights? I certainly hope you're not saying that you paid more
for a name(!).

>>> ... I have a WD Blue NVMe drive, quality components through and through.
>>
>> I think you mentioned that its 1TB, right? And since you didn't mention
>> it, I'm assuming the motherboard has it as a PCI4 single slot, so no
>> boot drive RAID0 configuration. So then what does that benchmark at in,
>> say, Blackmagic's Disk Speed Test software?
>>
>> How much above 7,000 MB/sec does it run while comparing it to the
>> Studio? After all, you did claim "high-end", so you certainly must have
>> done some confirmation testing rather than to just "trust me" assume.
>
>
> It's one of the better models from its time, there certainly are
> faster models today with today's motherboards.

That's all nice ... but its sounding like more "brand name" bragging
fluff: what is the no-BS hard data from a SSD performance test?

FYI, as per
<https://www.servethehome.com/wd-blue-sn570-1tb-nvme-ssd-review/2/>

....so it looks like you're in the 2800-3300 MB/s ballpark, so roughly
half the bandwidth performance of the Studio you've criticized.

>>> You have to assemble
>>> your own hardware, to get a good value. Apple and other higher-end
>>> OEMs are gouging the crap out of people.
>>
>> There are some profit-centers to avoid for sure, but the adage of a DIY
>> "White Box" generic PCs must always be profoundly cheaper is obsolete:
>> a former (now retired) colleague used to run a side business where he
>> fabricated "White Box" generic PCs to sell at a discount, but he shut
>> down that business close to 20 years ago now, because he found that the
>> competition within the OEM's resulted in narrow enough margins such that
>> he wasn't really making money for his efforts...IIRC, he shut it down
>> when it dropped below $50/unit for all of his assembly time.
>
> To get my computer, at the time I bought the parts, preassembled,
> would cost a fortune.

How much more? More than the original Apple Studio's $1999 retail
price? (or if you prefer, $2200 with a parity upgrade to 1TB SSD)

> To get a seemingly comparable one, you'd at best get some less than
> comparable parts. The only way to maximize value is to self-assemble.

Which may or may not work, because 'value' relies on fungible components
with adequate competition and economy of scale to limit markup.

In any event, its looking to me that your system falls well short of the
Studio hardware's performance, so trying to do a price comparison
between the two without taking this into consideration is ineffective.

Now I'm not saying that anyone needs the Studio's performance level: the
point is that if one is going to critique price, the comparison must be
a valid one.

For PCs this traditionally means tweaking specs to be capability peers,
even if one personally don't need XYZ capability: this adjustment is to
compare Apples to Apples as best we can, because no one OEM seamlessly
fills every segment of the market, so there will always be limitations
in comparison attempts. This also means that when an individual's
capability needs are below the minimum product offered by an OEM, its
not the fault of the OEM that they've chosen to not compete in a
particular market segment.

-hh

On 2024-11-24 04:59, Joel wrote:
> -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:
>> On 11/23/24 8:13 PM, Joel wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I have 32 GB RAM and a 1 TB NVMe drive, admittedly my CPU is older,
>>>>> but one doesn't always need more horsepower, I didn't break the bank
>>>>> to get what I have.
>>>>
>>>> Except that suitability depends on what one's use case is, and it
>>>> doesn't matter if we're talking about PCs or cars, or whatever.
>>>>
>>>> So yeah, if you're just drooling on USENET, then a 2017 vintage Mac
>>>> laptop would do you perfectly fine ... I'll sell you one for $199.
>>>>
>>>> OTOH, if your work products merit completing them in a timely fashion,
>>>> then computers are just like race cars: "Speed cost money. How fast can
>>>> you afford to go?"
>>>
>>> My CPU is a 2020 model, 10th gen Intel. My motherboard can accept
>>> 10th or 11th gen CPUs.
>>
>> A "10th gen" Intel CPU would be 'Comet Lake' and there's many variations
>> therein .. from an Xeon or i9 all the way down to Celeron (its below the
>> i3 and Pentium Gold) .. so which one does your "high-end" system have?
>>
>> Here's the list:
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comet_Lake>
>>
>> And how does it benchmark against the Mac Studio that you've mentioned?
>>
>> I'll cut you a break by choosing the lowest end CPU ever sold in the
>> Studio: the M1 Max cored 2,418 single-core and 12,629 for multi-core in
>> the Geekbench 6 CPU Benchmark. FYI, the current model with the upper
>> tier M2 Ultra is single-core 2,819 & multi-core 21,802.
>
>
> It's an i5-10400, not the most high-end piece of the puzzle, that'd be
> the motherboard and power supply about equally so, but for my purposes
> it's as good as I really need. And could be replaced with an 11th gen
> i7, for example, without needing a different motherboard, although I'd
> need RAM to match it, too.

I notice your complete lack of a benchmark presented...

>
>
>>>>>>>>> I paid less to get high-end gear.
>>>>
>>>> Please remind me: just what's the specs of this claimed "high-end" gear?
>>>
>>> I have a Gigabyte AORUS motherboard, not some no-name junk that you'd
>>> get in a prefab box on Newegg for a hot price, ...
>>
>> Sorry, doesn't mean much to me: what's its salient characteristics
>> which relate to it being "high-end"? For example, is it PCI5 or 4?
>
>
> It's meant for elite gaming systems, I wanted it for the
> expandability, bragging rights, reliability over time.

"bragging rights" says all I really need to know about your "edgy" self.

On 2024-11-24 03:53, ILikeSushiRolls wrote:
> On 23 Nov 2024, -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> posted some
> news:vhu5jl$2348d$1@dont-email.me:
>
>> On 11/23/24 3:18 PM, chrisv wrote:
>>> Alan wrote:
>>>> Joel wrote:
>>>>> Alan wrote:
>>>>>> Joel wrote:
>>>>>>> Apple is the enemy, to be blunt.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In what sense?
>>>>>> Who or what are the the enemy OF?
>>>>>
>>>>> People who like getting value for money.
>>>
>>> They are a fine value, for some fraction of the market.
>>>
>>>> The very fact that Apple's customer loyalty is absolutely
>>>> outstanding suggests that people think they offer excellent value
>>>> for money.
>>>
>>> Some idiots just don't "get" the need for choice, and that all
>>> products that remain viable in a market are, by definition, the "best
>>> value" for some fraction the market.
>>
>> Agreed. By a 'some fraction of the market' metric, marketshare shows
>> that on the desktop, Apple provides a healthy amount of choice (and
>> value) versus Microsoft.
>>
>> Its been years since I've even bothered to look these up:
>>
>> Worldwide marketshares of desktop OSs is 73% Win - 16% Mac
>> (remaining 10% is Chrome+Linux+Unknown, roughly evenly split).
>> Similarly, for USA, its 62% Win - 25% Mac.
>>
>> Source:
>> <https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide/#monthly-2
>> 02310-202410>
>>
>> <https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/united-states-of-ame
>> rica/#monthly-202310-202410>
>>
>>> That includes desktop Linux, of course.
>>
>> Pedantically sure, but at just 4% (& dropped to 4th place overall),
>> desktop Linux is pragmatically almost irrelevant.
>
> Not if your applications are web served, then the desktop platform becomes
> irrelevant. There's little difference between Windows and Linux in that
> sense. On the flip side, Apple's crappy Safari browser won't work well
> with some major CRM platforms and results in Firefox or Chrome
> installations just so people can work.
>

"Serving" anything—not just applications—is NOT really using a computer
personally.

But go ahead and tell me what major CRM platform won't work with Safari.

-hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:

>>>>>>>>>> I paid less to get high-end gear.
>>>>>
>>>>> Please remind me: just what's the specs of this claimed "high-end" gear?
>>>>
>>>> I have a Gigabyte AORUS motherboard, not some no-name junk that you'd
>>>> get in a prefab box on Newegg for a hot price, ...
>>>
>>> Sorry, doesn't mean much to me: what's its salient characteristics
>>> which relate to it being "high-end"? For example, is it PCI5 or 4?
>>
>> It's meant for elite gaming systems, I wanted it for the
>> expandability, bragging rights, reliability over time.
>
>Bragging rights? I certainly hope you're not saying that you paid more
>for a name(!).

The motherboard is more relevant to overall quality than a lot of
people might realize. It's not paying for a name, it's paying for
durability and quality.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>On 2024-11-24 04:59, Joel wrote:
>> -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:
>>> On 11/23/24 8:13 PM, Joel wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I have a Gigabyte AORUS motherboard, not some no-name junk that you'd
>>>> get in a prefab box on Newegg for a hot price, ...
>>>
>>> Sorry, doesn't mean much to me: what's its salient characteristics
>>> which relate to it being "high-end"? For example, is it PCI5 or 4?
>>
>> It's meant for elite gaming systems, I wanted it for the
>> expandability, bragging rights, reliability over time.
>
>"bragging rights" says all I really need to know about your "edgy" self.

Uh huh, like Apple drones don't brag about their purchases, give me a
break, they lord it over people, oh look at me affording Apple, la la
la, such garbage.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On 2024-11-24 11:39, Joel wrote:
> -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:
>
>>>>>>>>>>> I paid less to get high-end gear.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please remind me: just what's the specs of this claimed "high-end" gear?
>>>>>
>>>>> I have a Gigabyte AORUS motherboard, not some no-name junk that you'd
>>>>> get in a prefab box on Newegg for a hot price, ...
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, doesn't mean much to me: what's its salient characteristics
>>>> which relate to it being "high-end"? For example, is it PCI5 or 4?
>>>
>>> It's meant for elite gaming systems, I wanted it for the
>>> expandability, bragging rights, reliability over time.
>>
>> Bragging rights? I certainly hope you're not saying that you paid more
>> for a name(!).
>
>
> The motherboard is more relevant to overall quality than a lot of
> people might realize. It's not paying for a name, it's paying for
> durability and quality.
>

You're the one who literally said:

"bragging rights".

On 2024-11-24 11:40, Joel wrote:
> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>> On 2024-11-24 04:59, Joel wrote:
>>> -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:
>>>> On 11/23/24 8:13 PM, Joel wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I have a Gigabyte AORUS motherboard, not some no-name junk that you'd
>>>>> get in a prefab box on Newegg for a hot price, ...
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, doesn't mean much to me: what's its salient characteristics
>>>> which relate to it being "high-end"? For example, is it PCI5 or 4?
>>>
>>> It's meant for elite gaming systems, I wanted it for the
>>> expandability, bragging rights, reliability over time.
>>
>> "bragging rights" says all I really need to know about your "edgy" self.
>
>
> Uh huh, like Apple drones don't brag about their purchases, give me a
> break, they lord it over people, oh look at me affording Apple, la la
> la, such garbage.
Show me an example of such a post.

I've seen folks such as yourself claim it...

....but I don't believe I've ever seen it.

On 11/24/24 3:21 PM, Alan wrote:
> On 2024-11-24 11:39, Joel wrote:
>> -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I paid less to get high-end gear.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please remind me: just what's the specs of this claimed "high-
>>>>>>> end" gear?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have a Gigabyte AORUS motherboard, not some no-name junk that you'd
>>>>>> get in a prefab box on Newegg for a hot price, ...
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry, doesn't mean much to me:  what's its salient characteristics
>>>>> which relate to it being "high-end"?  For example, is it PCI5 or 4?
>>>>
>>>> It's meant for elite gaming systems, I wanted it for the
>>>> expandability, bragging rights, reliability over time.
>>>
>>> Bragging rights?  I certainly hope you're not saying that you paid more
>>> for a name(!).
>>
>>
>> The motherboard is more relevant to overall quality than a lot of
>> people might realize.  It's not paying for a name, it's paying for
>> durability and quality.
>>
>
> You're the one who literally said:
> "bragging rights".

While also snipping a whole bunch of other objective metrics.

Gosh, it musta been another "accident"...

....instead of a tacit admission through avoidance that he knows that he
can't support his assertion that he made a rational product decision.

-hh

On 2024-11-24 12:38, -hh wrote:
> On 11/24/24 3:21 PM, Alan wrote:
>> On 2024-11-24 11:39, Joel wrote:
>>> -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I paid less to get high-end gear.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Please remind me: just what's the specs of this claimed "high-
>>>>>>>> end" gear?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have a Gigabyte AORUS motherboard, not some no-name junk that
>>>>>>> you'd
>>>>>>> get in a prefab box on Newegg for a hot price, ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry, doesn't mean much to me:  what's its salient characteristics
>>>>>> which relate to it being "high-end"?  For example, is it PCI5 or 4?
>>>>>
>>>>> It's meant for elite gaming systems, I wanted it for the
>>>>> expandability, bragging rights, reliability over time.
>>>>
>>>> Bragging rights?  I certainly hope you're not saying that you paid more
>>>> for a name(!).
>>>
>>>
>>> The motherboard is more relevant to overall quality than a lot of
>>> people might realize.  It's not paying for a name, it's paying for
>>> durability and quality.
>>>
>>
>> You're the one who literally said:
>> "bragging rights".
>
>
> While also snipping a whole bunch of other objective metrics.
>
> Gosh, it musta been another "accident"...
>
> ...instead of a tacit admission through avoidance that he knows that he
> can't support his assertion that he made a rational product decision.
Funny that, ain't it?

😉

Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>On 2024-11-24 11:39, Joel wrote:
>> -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>> I have a Gigabyte AORUS motherboard, not some no-name junk that you'd
>>>>>> get in a prefab box on Newegg for a hot price, ...
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry, doesn't mean much to me: what's its salient characteristics
>>>>> which relate to it being "high-end"? For example, is it PCI5 or 4?
>>>>
>>>> It's meant for elite gaming systems, I wanted it for the
>>>> expandability, bragging rights, reliability over time.
>>>
>>> Bragging rights? I certainly hope you're not saying that you paid more
>>> for a name(!).
>>
>> The motherboard is more relevant to overall quality than a lot of
>> people might realize. It's not paying for a name, it's paying for
>> durability and quality.
>
>You're the one who literally said:
>
>"bragging rights".

Yeah, but not about the name, about how good equipment I selected.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>On 2024-11-24 11:40, Joel wrote:
>> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>>> On 2024-11-24 04:59, Joel wrote:
>>>> -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 11/23/24 8:13 PM, Joel wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have a Gigabyte AORUS motherboard, not some no-name junk that you'd
>>>>>> get in a prefab box on Newegg for a hot price, ...
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry, doesn't mean much to me: what's its salient characteristics
>>>>> which relate to it being "high-end"? For example, is it PCI5 or 4?
>>>>
>>>> It's meant for elite gaming systems, I wanted it for the
>>>> expandability, bragging rights, reliability over time.
>>>
>>> "bragging rights" says all I really need to know about your "edgy" self.
>>
>> Uh huh, like Apple drones don't brag about their purchases, give me a
>> break, they lord it over people, oh look at me affording Apple, la la
>> la, such garbage.
>Show me an example of such a post.
>
>I've seen folks such as yourself claim it...
>
>...but I don't believe I've ever seen it.

On IRC, a guy who's a professional photographer uses Photoshop and
other Adobe apps under macOS, talks smack about Linux and GIMP. Acts
like it's so elite to use a Mac, I had Windows 11 Pro retail, I had
Photoshop still active when I got rid of it, because I wanted Linux.
That's how much advantage one gets with Linux.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

-hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:
>On 11/24/24 3:21 PM, Alan wrote:
>> On 2024-11-24 11:39, Joel wrote:
>>> -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I paid less to get high-end gear.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Please remind me: just what's the specs of this claimed "high-
>>>>>>>> end" gear?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have a Gigabyte AORUS motherboard, not some no-name junk that you'd
>>>>>>> get in a prefab box on Newegg for a hot price, ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry, doesn't mean much to me:  what's its salient characteristics
>>>>>> which relate to it being "high-end"?  For example, is it PCI5 or 4?
>>>>>
>>>>> It's meant for elite gaming systems, I wanted it for the
>>>>> expandability, bragging rights, reliability over time.
>>>>
>>>> Bragging rights?  I certainly hope you're not saying that you paid more
>>>> for a name(!).
>>>
>>> The motherboard is more relevant to overall quality than a lot of
>>> people might realize.  It's not paying for a name, it's paying for
>>> durability and quality.
>>
>> You're the one who literally said:
>> "bragging rights".
>
>While also snipping a whole bunch of other objective metrics.
>
>Gosh, it musta been another "accident"...
>
>...instead of a tacit admission through avoidance that he knows that he
>can't support his assertion that he made a rational product decision.

Incorrect. I don't care about benchmarks. I care about having a
modern, reliable, functional system. And not breaking the bank to get
it. Apple and M$ are endlessly requiring upgrades.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

-hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:

>> Not if your applications are web served, then the desktop platform becomes
>> irrelevant.
>
> Sure, but the market still isn't buying thin client PCs.

The iOS iPhone/iPad is a "thin-client" PC by the very definition that it
requires logging into Apple's mainframe servers to do anything useful.

Try to get an app without logging into Apple's mainframe servers, for
example, or try to use messaging the way you like or Facetime or almost
anything inside of Apple's mainframe walled garden. It just won't work.

Google designed Chrome OS to be a carbon copy of Apple's iOS.

There's no difference between iOS & Chrome OS in any meaningful way.

Peter <confused@nospam.net> wrote:
>-hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:
>
>>> Not if your applications are web served, then the desktop platform becomes
>>> irrelevant.
>>
>> Sure, but the market still isn't buying thin client PCs.
>
>The iOS iPhone/iPad is a "thin-client" PC by the very definition that it
>requires logging into Apple's mainframe servers to do anything useful.
>
>Try to get an app without logging into Apple's mainframe servers, for
>example, or try to use messaging the way you like or Facetime or almost
>anything inside of Apple's mainframe walled garden. It just won't work.
>
>Google designed Chrome OS to be a carbon copy of Apple's iOS.
>
>There's no difference between iOS & Chrome OS in any meaningful way.

In that they're equally lame, perhaps. I need the full power of
Linux. Windows 11 is acceptable on high-end systems, though. My
computer can run it, but Linux is better on it.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.