<https://energy-efficient-products.ec.europa.eu/ecodesign-and-energy-label/product-list/smartphones-and-tablets_en>
"Ecodesign requirements will apply to mobile phones and tablets
put on the EU market from 20 June 2025 onwards, including:
...
sufficiently durable batteries which can withstand
at least 800 charge and discharge cycles
while retaining at least 80% of their initial capacity
...

On 2024-07-15 16:40, Andrew wrote:
> <https://energy-efficient-products.ec.europa.eu/ecodesign-and-energy-label/product-list/smartphones-and-tablets_en>
> "Ecodesign requirements will apply to mobile phones and tablets
> put on the EU market from 20 June 2025 onwards, including:
> ...
> sufficiently durable batteries which can withstand
> at least 800 charge and discharge cycles
> while retaining at least 80% of their initial capacity
> ...

Starting in a year's time.

So when you claimed that there is a current test that Apple's iPhone
barely pass (another telling admission, BTW)...

....you were lying...

....or ignorant...

....or most likely both!

On Mon, 15 Jul 2024 23:40:21 -0000 (UTC), Andrew wrote:

> <https://energy-efficient-products.ec.europa.eu/ecodesign-and-energy-label/product-list/smartphones-and-tablets_en>
> "Ecodesign requirements will apply to mobile phones and tablets
> put on the EU market from 20 June 2025 onwards, including:
> ...
> sufficiently durable batteries which can withstand
> at least 800 charge and discharge cycles
> while retaining at least 80% of their initial capacity
> ...

No existing Apple iPhone battery comes close, by even Apple's standards.
Not sure about iOS tablets, but I think they're only 500-cycle rated too.

Which is not even close to what they should be rated for (800 cycles).

But what about the Android phone & tablet batteries?
Anyone got an OEM page listing the cycle rating on Samsung/Google devices?

Le 16/07/2024 à 00:40, Andrew a écrit :
> <https://energy-efficient-products.ec.europa.eu/ecodesign-and-energy-label/product-list/smartphones-and-tablets_en>
> "Ecodesign requirements will apply to mobile phones and tablets
> put on the EU market from 20 June 2025 onwards, including:
> ...
> sufficiently durable batteries which can withstand
> at least 800 charge and discharge cycles
> while retaining at least 80% of their initial capacity
> ...

We should leave the EU!

--
Ottavio Caruso

On 2024-07-16 04:58, Isaac Montara wrote:

>
> No existing Apple iPhone battery comes close, by even Apple's standards.
> Not sure about iOS tablets, but I think they're only 500-cycle rated too.

Apple's declaration of battery life is currently:

<<< Batteries of iPhone 14 models and earlier are designed to retain 80
percent of their original capacity at 500 complete charge cycles under
ideal conditions.

Batteries of iPhone 15 models are designed to retain 80 percent of their
original capacity at 1000 complete charge cycles under ideal conditions.>>>

Not sure what ideal conditions means, but I assume not too cold and not
too hot. Would be nice if Apple were more forthcoming on that definition.

> Which is not even close to what they should be rated for (800 cycles).

"should"? According to whom?

There are hundreds of millions of iPhone users around the world ... more
than 1.4B, according to one site. Doesn't sound like many of them are
worried about what the EU thinks the battery life "should" be.

My iPhone 11 is coming up on 5 years old. It has definitely been
recharged more than 800 times. It's own internal capacity declaration
is 90% - but I don't care - it lasts much more than a day from 100% -
and that is all that counts.

To be sure my use case is not the test case the EU uses, but the battery
is good enough in capacity and wear for my use case and then some.

If it fell below 70% or so, there is a shop nearby that can replace the
battery while I do the rounds at Costco.

--
"It would be a measureless disaster if Russian barbarism overlaid
the culture and independence of the ancient States of Europe."
Winston Churchill

On Tue, 16 Jul 2024 07:48:12 -0400, Alan Browne wrote:

>> No existing Apple iPhone battery comes close, by even Apple's standards.
>> Not sure about iOS tablets, but I think they're only 500-cycle rated too.
>
> Apple's declaration of battery life is currently:
>
> <<< Batteries of iPhone 14 models and earlier are designed to retain 80
> percent of their original capacity at 500 complete charge cycles under
> ideal conditions.
>
> Batteries of iPhone 15 models are designed to retain 80 percent of their
> original capacity at 1000 complete charge cycles under ideal conditions.>>>
>
> Not sure what ideal conditions means, but I assume not too cold and not
> too hot. Would be nice if Apple were more forthcoming on that definition.
>
>> Which is not even close to what they should be rated for (800 cycles).
>
> "should"? According to whom?
>
> There are hundreds of millions of iPhone users around the world ... more
> than 1.4B, according to one site. Doesn't sound like many of them are
> worried about what the EU thinks the battery life "should" be.
>
> My iPhone 11 is coming up on 5 years old. It has definitely been
> recharged more than 800 times. It's own internal capacity declaration
> is 90% - but I don't care - it lasts much more than a day from 100% -
> and that is all that counts.
>
> To be sure my use case is not the test case the EU uses, but the battery
> is good enough in capacity and wear for my use case and then some.
>
> If it fell below 70% or so, there is a shop nearby that can replace the
> battery while I do the rounds at Costco.

Charge cycles are not the number of times a battery has been charged.
https://support.apple.com/en-us/102888

Android 14 & up and iOS 17 & up both show the user their total cycle count.
https://www.phonearena.com/news/google-pixel-phones-battery-cycles-not-a-secret-in-android-14-qpr1_id150841

As mentioned above, these new EU bare-minimum battery life rules have made
even Apple scramble to meet the new EU minimum battery-life standards.
https://repair.eu/news/new-eu-rules-smartphones-and-tablets-will-follow-new-ecodesign-requirements-by-june-2025/

As a result, only iPhones 15 & up meet EU minimum battery life standards.
https://support.apple.com/en-us/101575

Androids generally get far better batteries than iPhones get, with
concomitant far better battery life, where some are double the minimum
by maintaining 80% of the useful battery capacity at 1,600 charge cycles.
https://www.androidauthority.com/galaxy-s25-updates-removable-battery-3409402/

But unlike Apple, who is transparent about their battery charge cycles,
it's much harder to find that information on the Google & Samsung sites.

Mostly what you get is a lot of bling about battery use efficiency instead.
https://elblog.pl/2024/05/07/samsung-galaxy-s25-series-to-introduce-innovative-battery-ai-for-extended-lifespan/

Chris wrote on Tue, 16 Jul 2024 06:58:01 -0000 (UTC) :

> Thanks for sharing the link for the first time despite ranting about this
> for the best part of three days.
>
> Now point to where the regulation confirms the subject of this thread i.e.
> "every iphone <15 fails the EU [battery] longevity test". Note the key
> word "fails". Apple (or any other manufacturer) choosing to omit legacy
> models from new regulations is not equivalent to failing to meet the
> regulations.

It's not so bad that you zealots are ignorant of everything about Apple.
What sets you zealots apart is you brazenly deny what everyone else knows.

*Why iPhone 15 Batteries Are Now Rated for 1,000 Charge Cycles*
<https://www.inverse.com/tech/why-iphone-15-battery-charge-cycles-increased-from-500-to-1000>

Everyone knows about the EU mandate - they don't keep these things secret.
<https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=16035&group=uk.telecom.mobile#16035>

Everything public about Apple is only secret to you ignorant Apple zealots.
Yet you ignorant zealots still brazenly deny what everyone else long knew.
<https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32023R1670>

What you zealots need to do is stop brazenly denying what only you don't
know, as denying all facts you are ignorant of is a Mount Stupid DK trait.
<https://repair.eu/news/new-eu-rules-smartphones-and-tablets-will-follow-new-ecodesign-requirements-by-june-2025/>

Another DK Mount Stupid trait all you Apple zealots have is denying
everything you're ignorant of that even Apple doesn't try to deny.
<https://support.apple.com/en-us/101575>

That wouldn't be so bad if you zealots weren't ignorant of everything
since Apple has been very open and honest that only the iPhones 15 & up
meet EU minimum battery life standards set to go into effect in 1 year.
<https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_23_3315>

It's not really important that you strange Apple zealots are ignorant.
What's important is your strange DK Mount Stupid propensity to deny it.

Andrew <andrew@spam.net> wrote:
> Chris wrote on Tue, 16 Jul 2024 06:58:01 -0000 (UTC) :
>
>> Thanks for sharing the link for the first time despite ranting about this
>> for the best part of three days.
>>
>> Now point to where the regulation confirms the subject of this thread i.e.
>> "every iphone <15 fails the EU [battery] longevity test". Note the key
>> word "fails". Apple (or any other manufacturer) choosing to omit legacy
>> models from new regulations is not equivalent to failing to meet the
>> regulations.
>
> It's not so bad that you zealots are ignorant

Your script has fubar'd. You've quoted and replied to the wrong thread.

In uk.telecom.mobile Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
> There are hundreds of millions of iPhone users around the world ... more
> than 1.4B, according to one site. Doesn't sound like many of them are
> worried about what the EU thinks the battery life "should" be.
>
> My iPhone 11 is coming up on 5 years old. It has definitely been
> recharged more than 800 times. It's own internal capacity declaration
> is 90% - but I don't care - it lasts much more than a day from 100% -
> and that is all that counts.

'800 times' is not 800 cycles - a cycle is full to empty. Plugging it in to
top up only takes a fraction of a cycle, and keeping it roughly half charged
causes less wear than being very full or very empty.

Once you start getting less than 'enough' (a day for many people) then it
forces you to change your habits, and at that point many people would
replace the phone.

> To be sure my use case is not the test case the EU uses, but the battery
> is good enough in capacity and wear for my use case and then some.
>
> If it fell below 70% or so, there is a shop nearby that can replace the
> battery while I do the rounds at Costco.

This is a really smart move, because cycle life is one of the things that
distinguishes a quality battery from a cheap battery. 500 cycles is a
common cycle life for top tier branded products, and I'd not be surprised if
the cheaper/trashier end is more like 200-300 cycles. It's also one of the
primary causes for people to scrap otherwise working devices, since paying
somebody to replace the battery is often going to be more than the 3/4/5/...
year old phone is worth. Make the battery last twice as many cycles and you
get twice as many years out of it.

Also, aftermarket batteries almost never mention their cycle life. I would
not be surprised if that number is very low - ie you'll be back for a
replacement before too long (100 cycles or less). Some actual testable
ratings for those would be good too, especially since it's rare to be able
to buy original batteries more than maybe a couple of years after the phone
is released (Apple would in theory be an exception, but Apple makes it
difficult for third party repair).

Theo

On 7/16/2024 4:06 PM, Theo wrote:
> '800 times' is not 800 cycles - a cycle is full to empty. Plugging it in to
> top up only takes a fraction of a cycle, and keeping it roughly half charged
> causes less wear than being very full or very empty.

Most new Samsung & Google phones go for a few days now on a full charge,
especially those that are around five to seven amp hours in capacity.

> Once you start getting less than 'enough' (a day for many people) then it
> forces you to change your habits, and at that point many people would
> replace the phone.

Most phones nowadays charge in a couple hours using a PD or QC charger.
That means you only charge the new phones when you feel that they need it.

>> To be sure my use case is not the test case the EU uses, but the battery
>> is good enough in capacity and wear for my use case and then some.
>>
>> If it fell below 70% or so, there is a shop nearby that can replace the
>> battery while I do the rounds at Costco.
>
> This is a really smart move, because cycle life is one of the things that
> distinguishes a quality battery from a cheap battery. 500 cycles is a
> common cycle life for top tier branded products, and I'd not be surprised if
> the cheaper/trashier end is more like 200-300 cycles. It's also one of the
> primary causes for people to scrap otherwise working devices, since paying
> somebody to replace the battery is often going to be more than the 3/4/5/...
> year old phone is worth. Make the battery last twice as many cycles and you
> get twice as many years out of it.

Given the biggest determinant of overall battery life depends the most on
the initial charge capacity, it would be interesting to understand better
how putting a battery twice the size of the original capacity extends life.
> Also, aftermarket batteries almost never mention their cycle life. I would
> not be surprised if that number is very low - ie you'll be back for a
> replacement before too long (100 cycles or less). Some actual testable
> ratings for those would be good too, especially since it's rare to be able
> to buy original batteries more than maybe a couple of years after the phone
> is released (Apple would in theory be an exception, but Apple makes it
> difficult for third party repair).

Some Android phones allow you to put in a larger battery than the original.
Wouldn't a battery twice original size halve the number of charge cycles?
(all else being equal, of course)

On 2024-07-16 08:38, Harry S Robins wrote:

> Charge cycles are not the number of times a battery has been charged.

No shit. I've snipped the rest of your post as well trodden ground.

The fact remains that iPhones are the single most popular family of
smartphones out there. Bar none. And that is for a reason and has
pretty much nothing to do with the battery, it's capacity or endurance
over charge cycles.

Amongst friends and colleagues 90% are iPhone users and this goes back
over 10 years and 3 or more phones per person. Tip: none changed their
phones due to the battery.

None has ever even mentioned issues with the battery.

--
"It would be a measureless disaster if Russian barbarism overlaid
the culture and independence of the ancient States of Europe."
Winston Churchill

On 2024-07-16 10:06, Theo wrote:
> In uk.telecom.mobile Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
>> There are hundreds of millions of iPhone users around the world ... more
>> than 1.4B, according to one site. Doesn't sound like many of them are
>> worried about what the EU thinks the battery life "should" be.
>>
>> My iPhone 11 is coming up on 5 years old. It has definitely been
>> recharged more than 800 times. It's own internal capacity declaration
>> is 90% - but I don't care - it lasts much more than a day from 100% -
>> and that is all that counts.
>
> '800 times' is not 800 cycles - a cycle is full to empty. Plugging it in to
> top up only takes a fraction of a cycle, and keeping it roughly half charged
> causes less wear than being very full or very empty.

I pretty much always charge from somewhere below 20% to usually 100%.
This goes up to 2 days (occasionally more).

Deleted the rest of the well trodden ground.

Face it. There are no problems with Apple iPhone battery life,
endurance, charge cycles, etc. that matter to the vast majority of users.

The usual troll riles up the groups with drivel and regrettably some
people give it oxygen.

--
"It would be a measureless disaster if Russian barbarism overlaid
the culture and independence of the ancient States of Europe."
Winston Churchill

On Tue, 16 Jul 2024 10:33:35 -0400, Alan Browne wrote:

> The fact remains that iPhones are the single most popular family of
> smartphones out there. Bar none. And that is for a reason and has
> pretty much nothing to do with the battery, it's capacity or endurance
> over charge cycles.

Maybe in the small town you live in but most of the world is on Android.
https://explodingtopics.com/blog/iphone-android-users

Only people in rich countries can afford Apple's 3X battery costs.
https://swappa.com/blog/iphone-battery-replacement-cost/
> Amongst friends and colleagues 90% are iPhone users and this goes back
> over 10 years and 3 or more phones per person. Tip: none changed their
> phones due to the battery.

It's odd you have never even once heard of the Apple battery gate issues.

> None has ever even mentioned issues with the battery.

Given Apple's battery woes are widely known and yet you have no idea that
about 11 million people per year had to prematurely replace their iPhone
battery just to get iPhones not to die all the time, you're not credible.

W Tue, 16 Jul 2024 10:38:39 -0400, Alan Browne napisal:

> Face it. There are no problems with Apple iPhone battery life,
> endurance, charge cycles, etc. that matter to the vast majority of users.

No iPhone battery problems. No problem at all. Keep moving. Mind the gap.
https://www.theverge.com/2024/1/6/24028162/apple-batterygate-payments-issued-class-action-lawsuit

On 16/07/2024 00:40, Andrew wrote:
> <https://energy-efficient-products.ec.europa.eu/ecodesign-and-energy-label/product-list/smartphones-and-tablets_en>
> "Ecodesign requirements will apply to mobile phones and tablets
> put on the EU market from 20 June 2025 onwards, including:
> ...
> sufficiently durable batteries which can withstand
> at least 800 charge and discharge cycles
> while retaining at least 80% of their initial capacity
> ...

Might be an idea to define exactly what is meant by "charge / discharge
cycle" ?

I suspect that most phones are never left to discharge properly, and are
rarely turned off.

Am 16.07.24 um 17:36 schrieb Abandoned Trolley:
> Might be an idea to define exactly what is meant by "charge / discharge
> cycle" ?
>
>
> I suspect that most phones are never left to discharge properly, and are
> rarely turned off.

It is absolutely counterproductive to empty a LiIon-Battery. It will age
rapidly. Try to keep the SOC (State of Charge) between 20% and 80%.
Charge it once every two to four weeks to 100% and disconnect it as soon
as possible from the power grid.

A turned off smartphone is dead waste. I experience quite often that
senior people have difficulties to accept this fact. Smartphones do a
lot of background stuff during night time.

--
"Gutta cavat lapidem." (Ovid)

On 2024-07-16 01:58, Isaac Montara wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Jul 2024 23:40:21 -0000 (UTC), Andrew wrote:
>
>>  <https://energy-efficient-products.ec.europa.eu/ecodesign-and-energy-label/product-list/smartphones-and-tablets_en>
>>   "Ecodesign requirements will apply to mobile phones and tablets
>>    put on the EU market from 20 June 2025 onwards, including:
>>    ...
>>    sufficiently durable batteries which can withstand    at least 800
>> charge and discharge cycles    while retaining at least 80% of their
>> initial capacity
>>    ...
>
> No existing Apple iPhone battery comes close, by even Apple's standards.
> Not sure about iOS tablets, but I think they're only 500-cycle rated too.

You "think"?

You mean you GUESS, don't you, Arlen?

>
> Which is not even close to what they should be rated for (800 cycles).
>
> But what about the Android phone & tablet batteries?
> Anyone got an OEM page listing the cycle rating on Samsung/Google devices?

So you're now admitting you're guess.

Am 16.07.24 um 17:36 schrieb Abandoned Trolley:
> On 16/07/2024 00:40, Andrew wrote:
>> <https://energy-efficient-products.ec.europa.eu/ecodesign-and-energy-label/product-list/smartphones-and-tablets_en>
>> "Ecodesign requirements will apply to mobile phones and tablets
>> put on the EU market from 20 June 2025 onwards, including:
>> ...
>> sufficiently durable batteries which can withstand
>> at least 800 charge and discharge cycles
>> while retaining at least 80% of their initial capacity
>> ...
>
>
> Might be an idea to define exactly what is meant by "charge / discharge
> cycle" ?

That is defined. From 100% to 0% and back 100%. This is the equivalent
of one full cycle.

--
"Gutta cavat lapidem." (Ovid)

On 2024-07-16 07:42, Harry S Robins wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Jul 2024 10:33:35 -0400, Alan Browne wrote:
>
>> The fact remains that iPhones are the single most popular family of
>> smartphones out there.  Bar none.  And that is for a reason and has
>> pretty much nothing to do with the battery, it's capacity or endurance
>> over charge cycles.
>
> Maybe in the small town you live in but most of the world is on Android.
> https://explodingtopics.com/blog/iphone-android-users
>
> Only people in rich countries can afford Apple's 3X battery costs.
> https://swappa.com/blog/iphone-battery-replacement-cost/
>
>> Amongst friends and colleagues 90% are iPhone users and this goes back
>> over 10 years and 3 or more phones per person.  Tip: none changed
>> their phones due to the battery.
>
> It's odd you have never even once heard of the Apple battery gate issues.
>
>> None has ever even mentioned issues with the battery.
>
> Given Apple's battery woes are widely known and yet you have no idea that
> about 11 million people per year had to prematurely replace their iPhone
> battery just to get iPhones not to die all the time, you're not credible.

Your source for that "11 million" claim is?

On 2024-07-16 07:46, Jan K. wrote:
> W Tue, 16 Jul 2024 10:38:39 -0400, Alan Browne napisal:
>
>> Face it.  There are no problems with Apple iPhone battery life,
>> endurance, charge cycles, etc. that matter to the vast majority of users.
>
> No iPhone battery problems. No problem at all. Keep moving. Mind the gap.
> https://www.theverge.com/2024/1/6/24028162/apple-batterygate-payments-issued-class-action-lawsuit

There was literally no problem with the batteries in that case that is
not a problem for every smartphone battery.

Batteries age, and "batterygate" was about how Apple chose to deal with
that fact.

>
> That is defined. From 100% to 0% and back 100%. This is the equivalent
> of one full cycle.
>

so ... completely unrealistic in "normal" use ?

> I experience quite often that senior people have difficulties to accept this fact. Smartphones do a
> lot of background stuff during night time.
>

Sorry - I keep forgetting that old people are stupid.

On 16.07.24 14:38, Harry S Robins wrote:
> Charge cycles are not the number of times a battery has been charged.
> https://support.apple.com/en-us/102888

Arlen, you are a Wisenheimer and a brain dead Troll.

--
"De gustibus non est disputandum."

On 16.07.24 16:46, Jan K. wrote:
> No iPhone battery problems. No problem at all. Keep moving. Mind the gap.

Arlen, you are nymshifter of the worst kind and a brain dead Troll.

--
"De gustibus non est disputandum."

On 16.07.24 18:36, Abandoned Trolley wrote:
>
>>
>> That is defined. From 100% to 0% and back 100%. This is the equivalent
>> of one full cycle.
>>
>
> so ... completely unrealistic in "normal" use ?

Not at all. Two charge runs from 30% to 80% are the equivalent of one
cycle. See the point?

That also highlights the value of a large battery and energy saving
measures by the manufacturers.

--
"De gustibus non est disputandum."