On Mon, 8 Jul 2024 16:49:12 +0200, Jörg Lorenz wrote:

> France killed it:They made clear that they only support the legislation
> as long as it does not brake the E2E-encryption. But exactly this would
> happen if the "Chatkontrolle" would be passed. Belgium did not dare to
> hold a vote. It would have killed the legislation forever. And the
> Germans make/made it clear that they will not and cannot for
> constitutional reasons support such a law.

According to this article Germany killed it; France changed its mind
before.

<https://tuta.com/blog/germany-stop-chat-control>
> And more important: This vote if passed had only started the legislation
> process.

But you can see it coming from miles away: this is going to happen.

--
s|b

Am 08.07.24 um 17:25 schrieb s|b:
> On Mon, 8 Jul 2024 16:49:12 +0200, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>
>> France killed it:They made clear that they only support the legislation
>> as long as it does not brake the E2E-encryption. But exactly this would
>> happen if the "Chatkontrolle" would be passed. Belgium did not dare to
>> hold a vote. It would have killed the legislation forever. And the
>> Germans make/made it clear that they will not and cannot for
>> constitutional reasons support such a law.
>
> According to this article Germany killed it; France changed its mind
> before.
>
> <https://tuta.com/blog/germany-stop-chat-control>

Wrong. That was before a spokes-person corrected the Swedish Monster
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ylva_Johansson and made clear that
Johansson lied about the breakup of the E2E-encryption the whole time.

>> And more important: This vote if passed had only started the legislation
>> process.
>
> But you can see it coming from miles away: this is going to happen.

Perhaps.

--
"Manus manum lavat."

On 2024-07-07 19:08, Andrew wrote:
> Carlos E. R. wrote on Mon, 8 Jul 2024 02:58:15 +0200 :
>
>>> How about telephone number. RCS can be used in the default Android SMS
>>> (text) app, but both recipients need to support it. I tried it once with
>>> my brother. No login needed.
>>
>> You are mistaken. There is a login to the phone when you power it up.
>
> Hi Carlos,
>
> Let's take the simplest case, which is I have a drawer full of Android
> tablets in front of me, where I can easily connect them to the Internet,
> and with that I can do everything but make cellular phone calls, right?
>
> In that case, where is this login you speak of when I power them up?

How can you send and receive messages with those devices?

On 2024-07-08 03:42, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 2024-07-08 04:08, Andrew wrote:
>> Carlos E. R. wrote on Mon, 8 Jul 2024 02:58:15 +0200 :
>>
>>>> How about telephone number. RCS can be used in the default Android SMS
>>>> (text) app, but both recipients need to support it. I tried it once
>>>> with
>>>> my brother. No login needed.
>>>
>>> You are mistaken. There is a login to the phone when you power it up.
>>
>> Hi Carlos,
>>
>> Let's take the simplest case, which is I have a drawer full of Android
>> tablets in front of me, where I can easily connect them to the Internet,
>> and with that I can do everything but make cellular phone calls, right?
>
> Thus you can not make messages.
>

Note the feeble attempt to shift from "how about a telephone number" to
"everything [] but cellular phone"

On 2024-07-08 18:04, Alan wrote:
> On 2024-07-07 19:08, Andrew wrote:
>> Carlos E. R. wrote on Mon, 8 Jul 2024 02:58:15 +0200 :
>>
>>>> How about telephone number. RCS can be used in the default Android SMS
>>>> (text) app, but both recipients need to support it. I tried it once
>>>> with
>>>> my brother. No login needed.
>>>
>>> You are mistaken. There is a login to the phone when you power it up.
>>
>> Hi Carlos,
>>
>> Let's take the simplest case, which is I have a drawer full of Android
>> tablets in front of me, where I can easily connect them to the Internet,
>> and with that I can do everything but make cellular phone calls, right?
>>
>> In that case, where is this login you speak of when I power them up?
>
> How can you send and receive messages with those devices?

Any messaging platform will require some kind of login. And an SMS
replacement messaging platform will require a phone number associated,
thus a SIM card active.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 2024-07-08 11:48, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 2024-07-08 18:04, Alan wrote:
>> On 2024-07-07 19:08, Andrew wrote:
>>> Carlos E. R. wrote on Mon, 8 Jul 2024 02:58:15 +0200 :
>>>
>>>>> How about telephone number. RCS can be used in the default Android SMS
>>>>> (text) app, but both recipients need to support it. I tried it once
>>>>> with
>>>>> my brother. No login needed.
>>>>
>>>> You are mistaken. There is a login to the phone when you power it up.
>>>
>>> Hi Carlos,
>>>
>>> Let's take the simplest case, which is I have a drawer full of Android
>>> tablets in front of me, where I can easily connect them to the Internet,
>>> and with that I can do everything but make cellular phone calls, right?
>>>
>>> In that case, where is this login you speak of when I power them up?
>>
>> How can you send and receive messages with those devices?
>
> Any messaging platform will require some kind of login. And an SMS
> replacement messaging platform will require a phone number associated,
> thus a SIM card active.
>

Exactly.

Carlos E. R. wrote on Mon, 8 Jul 2024 12:42:05 +0200 :

>> Let's take the simplest case, which is I have a drawer full of Android
>> tablets in front of me, where I can easily connect them to the Internet,
>> and with that I can do everything but make cellular phone calls, right?
>
> Thus you can not make messages.

Yes, but my point was Android works well without creating a mothership
login/password - as long as the device has Wi-Fi Internet capabilities.

The point being that, unlike Apple devices which are designed as dumb
terminals that can't do what people love about them without creating a
login to mothership Internet servers, the Android device is designed such
that you never need to create an account on the device to motherships.

Now, let's take the case of a tablet/phone with a SIM card, shall we.

Q: What changes in terms of requiring a login/password to a mothership?
A: Nothing. There is no need to create mothership login/password.

As an example, I don't have a mothership login/password on my Android
device, and I can make/receive phone calls and make/receive MMS/SMS.

What makes anyone think I have to create a new login/password on my Android
phone or tablet (which has a SIM card) just for calls & messages?

Makes no sense.

On 2024-07-08 21:55, Andrew wrote:
> Carlos E. R. wrote on Mon, 8 Jul 2024 12:42:05 +0200 :
>
>>> Let's take the simplest case, which is I have a drawer full of Android
>>> tablets in front of me, where I can easily connect them to the Internet,
>>> and with that I can do everything but make cellular phone calls, right?
>>
>> Thus you can not make messages.
>
> Yes, but my point was Android works well without creating a mothership
> login/password - as long as the device has Wi-Fi Internet capabilities.

And we are telling you "no".

>
> The point being that, unlike Apple devices which are designed as dumb
> terminals that can't do what people love about them without creating a
> login to mothership Internet servers, the Android device is designed such
> that you never need to create an account on the device to motherships.
>
> Now, let's take the case of a tablet/phone with a SIM card, shall we.

And you need to enter the pin code when the phone boots. That's a LOGIN.
And you probably also need to login to Google (it is a google's app),
but I am not going to test this.

Enjoy.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

Carlos E. R. wrote on Mon, 8 Jul 2024 22:10:39 +0200 :
>> Now, let's take the case of a tablet/phone with a SIM card, shall we.
>
> And you need to enter the pin code when the phone boots. That's a LOGIN.
> And you probably also need to login to Google (it is a google's app),
> but I am not going to test this.

WTF? What kind of slum do you live in?

If you put a hundred locks on your bedroom door, then it's YOU who has to
navigate all those PIN codes - but the door is designed to work without it.

I have NEVER added a PIN code to my phone and my phone works just fine.
Nor do I have a Google Account set up on my phone and it works just fine.

If your phone doesn't work that way, then you're doing something wrong.

My point was, and is, that anyone who thinks that an Android phone requires
a mothership login/password just to make calls and send texts, is wrong.

That's basically how iOS works; not Android.
Apple designed iOS as a dumb terminal; Google didn't do that for Android.

Android makes/receives calls & texts & MMS just fine without creating a
mothership login/password to any server.

If your phone requires that login/password, then it's set up wrong.

Carlos E. R. wrote on Mon, 8 Jul 2024 20:48:26 +0200 :

>> How can you send and receive messages with those devices?
>
> Any messaging platform will require some kind of login. And an SMS
> replacement messaging platform will require a phone number associated,
> thus a SIM card active.

Hi Carlos,

When you use "some kind of login", what I mean by a login/password account
on an Internet server is specifically setting up an account on the phone to
that mothership server (e.g., to Google) which is not required on Android.

As Andy noted, plenty of people are incredibly stupid so they do set up a
login/password to Google servers on their phone - but it's never required.

Hell, I must have dozens of Google email addresses and I get my mail on
Android just fine *without* setting up a login/password to a Google account
on my phone. But I know how a phone works. Most people are clueless.

The connection to the cellular provider is a completely different thing
than is the connection to an Internet server by the way.

If you can't tell the difference, no wonder you're saying what you did.

The fact is that an Android phone works fine WITHOUT setting up a
login/password to a server on the Internet - whether you know that or not.

1. I have no Internet account set up on my phone
2. And my phone makes & receives calls just fine
3. And it makes & receives SMS/MMS texts just fine

Hell, even the dumb-terminal Apple devices can make & receive SMS/MMS texts
just fine without the user having to log into Apple's mothership servers.

In summary, anyone claiming the mothership Internet account/password is
required doesn't understand even the simplest of the basics of Android.

On 2024-07-08 12:55, Andrew wrote:
> Carlos E. R. wrote on Mon, 8 Jul 2024 12:42:05 +0200 :
>
>>> Let's take the simplest case, which is I have a drawer full of Android
>>> tablets in front of me, where I can easily connect them to the Internet,
>>> and with that I can do everything but make cellular phone calls, right?
>>
>> Thus you can not make messages.
>
> Yes, but my point was Android works well without creating a mothership
> login/password - as long as the device has Wi-Fi Internet capabilities.

The discussion was messaging services.

And those services require identiy.

>
> The point being that, unlike Apple devices which are designed as dumb
> terminals that can't do what people love about them without creating a
> login to mothership Internet servers, the Android device is designed such
> that you never need to create an account on the device to motherships.

I'm sorry but that is completely false.

Actually... ...I'm not sorry.

>
> Now, let's take the case of a tablet/phone with a SIM card, shall we.

Sure.

>
> Q: What changes in terms of requiring a login/password to a mothership?
> A: Nothing. There is no need to create mothership login/password.

That was the sound of goalposts being dragged.

>
> As an example, I don't have a mothership login/password on my Android
> device, and I can make/receive phone calls and make/receive MMS/SMS.

If you "login" with a SIM card.

>
> What makes anyone think I have to create a new login/password on my Android
> phone or tablet (which has a SIM card) just for calls & messages?

That is what is called a "straw man argument".

>
> Makes no sense.

On 2024-07-08 13:44, Andrew wrote:
> Carlos E. R. wrote on Mon, 8 Jul 2024 20:48:26 +0200 :
>
>>> How can you send and receive messages with those devices?
>>
>> Any messaging platform will require some kind of login. And an SMS
>> replacement messaging platform will require a phone number associated,
>> thus a SIM card active.
>
> Hi Carlos,
>
> When you use "some kind of login", what I mean by a login/password account
> on an Internet server is specifically setting up an account on the phone to
> that mothership server (e.g., to Google) which is not required on Android.

That's not what you meant when this discussion commenced.

>
> As Andy noted, plenty of people are incredibly stupid so they do set up a
> login/password to Google servers on their phone - but it's never required.
>
> Hell, I must have dozens of Google email addresses and I get my mail on
> Android just fine *without* setting up a login/password to a Google account
> on my phone. But I know how a phone works. Most people are clueless.
>
> The connection to the cellular provider is a completely different thing
> than is the connection to an Internet server by the way.
>
> If you can't tell the difference, no wonder you're saying what you did.
>
> The fact is that an Android phone works fine WITHOUT setting up a
> login/password to a server on the Internet - whether you know that or not.
>
> 1. I have no Internet account set up on my phone
> 2. And my phone makes & receives calls just fine
> 3. And it makes & receives SMS/MMS texts just fine
>
> Hell, even the dumb-terminal Apple devices can make & receive SMS/MMS texts
> just fine without the user having to log into Apple's mothership servers.
>
> In summary, anyone claiming the mothership Internet account/password is
> required doesn't understand even the simplest of the basics of Android.

On 2024-07-08 22:44, Andrew wrote:
> Carlos E. R. wrote on Mon, 8 Jul 2024 20:48:26 +0200 :
>
>>> How can you send and receive messages with those devices?
>>
>> Any messaging platform will require some kind of login. And an SMS
>> replacement messaging platform will require a phone number associated,
>> thus a SIM card active.
>
> Hi Carlos,
>
> When you use "some kind of login", what I mean by a login/password account
> on an Internet server is specifically setting up an account on the phone to
> that mothership server (e.g., to Google) which is not required on Android.
>
> As Andy noted, plenty of people are incredibly stupid so they do set up a
> login/password to Google servers on their phone - but it's never required.

Thank you for calling 99% of the population using androids stupid.

Plonk.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

Carlos E. R. wrote on Tue, 9 Jul 2024 13:07:39 +0200 :

>> As Andy noted, plenty of people are incredibly stupid so they do set up a
>> login/password to Google servers on their phone - but it's never required.
>
> Thank you for calling 99% of the population using androids stupid.

Now that we've established that anyone who says you must log into an
Internet server in order to use Android is ignorant of how phones work...

The original question that brought it up still remains unanswered...

Q: Does Google Messages with RCS/MLS require a login account for both users
who wish to communicate on an end-to-end encrypted chat?
A: Yes or no.

If so, there's a privacy issue there...

On 2024-07-09 06:16, Andrew wrote:
> Carlos E. R. wrote on Tue, 9 Jul 2024 13:07:39 +0200 :
>
>>> As Andy noted, plenty of people are incredibly stupid so they do set up a
>>> login/password to Google servers on their phone - but it's never required.
>>
>> Thank you for calling 99% of the population using androids stupid.
>
> Now that we've established that anyone who says you must log into an
> Internet server in order to use Android is ignorant of how phones work...
>
> The original question that brought it up still remains unanswered...
>
> Q: Does Google Messages with RCS/MLS require a login account for both users
> who wish to communicate on an end-to-end encrypted chat?
> A: Yes or no.

Yes. If you don't log in, how would a messaging service know where to
direct messages sent to you, you idiot?

>
> If so, there's a privacy issue there...

No. Not if the login can be created without any personally identifying
information.

On Tue, 9 Jul 2024 09:16:09 -0700, Alan wrote:

> Yes. If you don't log in, how would a messaging service know where to
> direct messages sent to you, you idiot?

Nobody on Android has to log into a server to use their mms sms app.

If your Android phone requires it, then you're doing something wrong.

What Android phone are you using which requires a login account?

Bill Powell wrote:

> Nobody on Android has to log into a server to use their mms sms app.
> If your Android phone requires it, then you're doing something wrong.
>
> What Android phone are you using which requires a login account?

The credentials to use sms/mms are stored in the SIM ...

On Tue, 9 Jul 2024 17:46:35 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

>> Nobody on Android has to log into a server to use their mms sms app.
>> If your Android phone requires it, then you're doing something wrong.
>>
>> What Android phone are you using which requires a login account?
>
> The credentials to use sms/mms are stored in the SIM ...

But that works independent of any Internet login password server accounts.

Nobody on Android has to connect to the Internet with a login & password
account just to use the default messaging that comes with every Android.

Not sure about MLS or RCS though, as that's not the default, is it?

On 2024-07-09 09:38, Bill Powell wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Jul 2024 09:16:09 -0700, Alan wrote:
>
>> Yes. If you don't log in, how would a messaging service know where to
>> direct messages sent to you, you idiot?
>
> Nobody on Android has to log into a server to use their mms sms app.

Incorrect.

You just do the "log in" via the SIM in your phone.

>
> If your Android phone requires it, then you're doing something wrong.
>
> What Android phone are you using which requires a login account?

Message requires identifying recipients.

Ergo, those recipients must provide some means of identifying themselves.

That is what logging in means.

On 2024-07-09 09:51, Bill Powell wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Jul 2024 17:46:35 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:
>
>>> Nobody on Android has to log into a server to use their mms sms app.
>>> If your Android phone requires it, then you're doing something wrong.
>>>
>>> What Android phone are you using which requires a login account?
>>
>> The credentials to use sms/mms are stored in the SIM ...
>
> But that works independent of any Internet login password server accounts.

What is an "internet login password server account"?

>
> Nobody on Android has to connect to the Internet with a login & password
> account just to use the default messaging that comes with every Android.
>
> Not sure about MLS or RCS though, as that's not the default, is it?

If you want to receive messages, you must identify yourself and
authenticate that you are the authorized recipient of those messages.

On 2024-07-09 15:16, Andrew wrote:
> Carlos E. R. wrote on Tue, 9 Jul 2024 13:07:39 +0200 :
>
>>> As Andy noted, plenty of people are incredibly stupid so they do set up a
>>> login/password to Google servers on their phone - but it's never required.
>>
>> Thank you for calling 99% of the population using androids stupid.
>
> Now that we've established that anyone who says you must log into an
> Internet server in order to use Android is ignorant of how phones work...
>
> The original question that brought it up still remains unanswered...

It has been answered. I told you to go and find out yourself. I am not
interested in testing it.

>
> Q: Does Google Messages with RCS/MLS require a login account for both users
> who wish to communicate on an end-to-end encrypted chat?
> A: Yes or no.
>
> If so, there's a privacy issue there...

No.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On Tue, 9 Jul 2024 10:51:33 -0700, Alan wrote:

>> Nobody on Android has to log into a server to use their mms sms app.
>
> Incorrect.
>
> You just do the "log in" via the SIM in your phone.
>
>>
>> If your Android phone requires it, then you're doing something wrong.
>>
>> What Android phone are you using which requires a login account?
>
> Message requires identifying recipients.
>
> Ergo, those recipients must provide some means of identifying themselves.
>
> That is what logging in means.

Please look up what the "Internet" means before continuing to make a fool
of yourself stating that a cell phone can't do text messaging without
entering a login and password into a server that is on the Internet.

On Tue, 9 Jul 2024 10:52:35 -0700, Alan wrote:

>>>> Nobody on Android has to log into a server to use their mms sms app.
>>>> If your Android phone requires it, then you're doing something wrong.
>>>>
>>>> What Android phone are you using which requires a login account?
>>>
>>> The credentials to use sms/mms are stored in the SIM ...
>>
>> But that works independent of any Internet login password server accounts.
>
> What is an "internet login password server account"?
>
>>
>> Nobody on Android has to connect to the Internet with a login & password
>> account just to use the default messaging that comes with every Android.
>>
>> Not sure about MLS or RCS though, as that's not the default, is it?
>
> If you want to receive messages, you must identify yourself and
> authenticate that you are the authorized recipient of those messages.

Your knowledge level is so lacking that it's hard to respond nicely.

If I have to explain to you what the Internet is, then you have no business
making your outrageous claims that Android can't do text messaging without
having to enter a login and password into an Internet server account.

Android has been doing text messaging without the Internet for a long time.

On Mon, 8 Jul 2024 17:35:37 +0200, J�rg Lorenz wrote:

> That was before a spokes-person corrected the Swedish Monster

Shut up Arlen. Say something useful for once, you fucking moron.

On 2024-07-10 00:10, Bill Powell wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Jul 2024 10:52:35 -0700, Alan wrote:
>
>>>>> Nobody on Android has to log into a server to use their mms sms app.
>>>>> If your Android phone requires it, then you're doing something wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>> What Android phone are you using which requires a login account?
>>>>
>>>> The credentials to use sms/mms are stored in the SIM ...
>>>
>>> But that works independent of any Internet login password server
>>> accounts.
>>
>> What is an "internet login password server account"?
>>
>>>
>>> Nobody on Android has to connect to the Internet with a login & password
>>> account just to use the default messaging that comes with every Android.
>>>
>>> Not sure about MLS or RCS though, as that's not the default, is it?
>>
>> If you want to receive messages, you must identify yourself and
>> authenticate that you are the authorized recipient of those messages.
>
> Your knowledge level is so lacking that it's hard to respond nicely.
>
> If I have to explain to you what the Internet is, then you have no business
> making your outrageous claims that Android can't do text messaging without
> having to enter a login and password into an Internet server account.

I never said it was a "internet server account".

>
> Android has been doing text messaging without the Internet for a long time.

And that text messaging requires a form of logging in that's just so
transparent to you, you don't notice it.

The SIM card logs you in to your cellular provider.

Do you know what "SIM" means:

"Subscriber Identity Module".