Do the non-Apple common consumer operating systems (android, linux,
win10/win11) work WITHOUT logging into the mothership mainframe servers?

My only question to the non-Apple newsgroups is whether or not it is a true
statement of mine that no other common consumer operating system (not even
Windows 11) requires a mothership tracking account for basic functionality
(certainly I am well aware Android does not require it).

Is my statement correct for all the non-Apple common consumer systems?
Q: Does any non-Apple common OS require a mothership account for the
basic functionality of the operating system that people love about it?

That's all I ask to flesh out here, as I care only about the truth.

I will only respond to those who stick to the topic of whether the
non-Apple operating systems ALSO are set up on the dumb-terminal model
(with the inherent loss of privacy, particularly in meta-data collection).

Below is simply a note I wrote today, in response to a question on the
Apple iOS newsgroup about what happens if you DENY Apple's daily requests
to log into their mainframe servers in order to obtain basic iOS
functionality (which I did on two iPads for two years and Apple bricked
them at the conclusion of those two years of refusing to log into Apple).

===< Please cut below for the content of the message I wrote for iOS >===
From: Andrew <andrew@spam.net>
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.mobile.ipad
Subject: Re: Ignoring requests for Apple ID
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2024 04:44:43 -0000 (UTC)
Message-ID: <v5o3fr$148g$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com>
X-Newsreader: PiaoHong.Usenet.Client.Free:1.65

Your Name wrote on Sat, 29 Jun 2024 16:11:51 +1200 :

> On 2024-06-29 01:29:59 +0000, <bp@www.zefox.net> said:
>>
>> For some time the iPhone6 I carry for emergencies has asked
>> for my apple ID. I always touch "not now" and go about my
>> business. So far, there hasn't been any repercussion and
>> the phone works when I need it.
>>
>> Why is the phone asking, and will something bad happen, like the
>> phone not working, if I keep hitting "not now"?
>>
>> Thanks for reading,
>>
>> bob prohaska
>
> Shouldn't be any problem, but there are many reasons why it might be
> asking for it, so you may want to look into why it keeps asking. Apple
> ID is required for things like iCloud features, updating of apps of
> iOS, recent changes to your Touch ID or Face ID, etc., etc.

When you buy an Apple product - you buy into the dumb-terminal ecosystem.

Worse, you buy into Apple storing huge amounts of your metadata on the net!
*I asked Apple for all my data. Here's what was sent back*
<https://www.zdnet.com/article/apple-data-collection-stored-request/>

These files "contain metadata, like when and who I messaged or called on
FaceTime" which is a privacy flaw inherent in the dumb-terminal model.

For example, Apple unilaterally inserts, into every IPA you install, a
*unique* code specific only to you so that Apple can track app activity.

For example, Apple keeps a copy of every app and song you have ever
downloaded and every tune you've ever added to your iTunes music library.

Most users are completely unaware there is no common consumer operating
system other than Apple's which require you to constantly log into their
mothership servers for the basic functionality you know & love about iOS.

And Apple never advertises the huge amount of data it stores about you.
�*Apple took 8 days to give me the data it had collected on me. It was
eye opening*
�<https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/talkingtech/2018/05/04/asked-apple-everything-had-me-heres-what-got/558362002/>

Apple uses some of this immense data to"sell targeted ads based on our
interests in the News and App Store apps" (see that in the references cited
since most of the Apple religious zealots hate all truths about Apple).

1. The walled garden does not work if you don't log into Apple servers.
2. There are *many* Apple servers you need to log into for it to work.
3. There's the iCloud & the Apple AppStore, Messages, Facetime, etc.

On two separate iPads, I have refused to log into those accounts, and what
happens, naturally, is you are eventually unable to use the walled garden.
<https://i.postimg.cc/LXzB3Lc0/appleid01.jpg> Apple _forces_ a log in!
<https://i.postimg.cc/ZR5mZ287/appleid07.jpg> Apple fails App Store test
<https://i.postimg.cc/TwN6P0QR/appleid08.jpg> Only Apple requires a login
<https://i.postimg.cc/8k3GQyj4/appleid09.jpg> Apple tracks your activity
<https://i.postimg.cc/hhFNJ5mq/appleid010.jpg> Apps become non functional
<https://i.postimg.cc/nrFHSvby/appleid11.jpg> Apple _forces_ extra logins!
<https://i.postimg.cc/Y9kkj19v/appleid12.jpg> Apple tracking server login

But you can use "some" of the features of the walled garden; just not all.
<https://i.postimg.cc/9XtgRz0y/mothership01.jpg> Apple forces verification
<https://i.postimg.cc/q73jkvWh/mothership02.jpg> into mothership trackers
<https://i.postimg.cc/7hmNBGJc/mothership03.jpg> Safari & Chrome work fine
<https://i.postimg.cc/GhmK4QZ1/mothership04.jpg> So does Youtube work fine
<https://i.postimg.cc/vBv7BghB/mothership05.jpg> No problem with web pages
<https://i.postimg.cc/xjtyVmqp/mothership06.jpg> The walled garden fails
<https://i.postimg.cc/ht79m3sN/mothership07.jpg> iMessage garden fails
<https://i.postimg.cc/5tBL7YZ3/mothership08.jpg> FaceTime garden fails
<https://i.postimg.cc/Y09FCXjn/mothership09.jpg> App Store finds 1Blocker
<https://i.postimg.cc/tC869Nbk/mothership10.jpg> App Store installs apps
<https://i.postimg.cc/FKVkgtLC/mothership11.jpg> But it won't do iCloud

Which means, Apple designed iOS as a "dumb terminal" which gets much of its
beloved functionality only by logging into Apple's mainframe servers for
most of the beloved walled-garden functionality - without which - the iOS
device reverts to a dumb terminal that can't do what you love about iOS.

Paradoxically, while all the beloved walled-garden functionality eventually
disappears after about two years (tested on two different iPads) of
refusing to log into the walled-garden Apple servers, the one functionality
that remained was the capability of updating your operating system version.
<https://i.postimg.cc/hvhgB91S/update01.jpg> iPadOS 16.3.1 is available
<https://i.postimg.cc/Qtfsw654/update02.jpg> 16.3.1 Update Requested
<https://i.postimg.cc/vmLGL8md/update03.jpg> About 10 minutes remaining
<https://i.postimg.cc/d11gkJk6/update04.jpg> Preparing Update
<https://i.postimg.cc/rw1B7n21/update05.jpg> Downloaded
<https://i.postimg.cc/yN7MKm7w/update06.jpg> Finish Setting Up iPad
<https://i.postimg.cc/13DSsRwN/update07.jpg> More for your iPad
<https://i.postimg.cc/Xv80B22j/update08.jpg> Update Apple ID Settings
<https://i.postimg.cc/TYLGNJP0/update09.jpg> iPadOS Version 16.3.1
<https://i.postimg.cc/L509Yy8Y/update10.jpg> Sign in to iCloud
<https://i.postimg.cc/zvfDfm8Y/update11.jpg> Finished Setting up iPad
<https://i.postimg.cc/Z5Nbnxtn/update12.jpg> Verifying update...

In summary, of all common consumer operating systems (including Windows
11), only the Apple operating systems are designed essentially as dumb
terminals which don't do what you love about them without logging into the
mainframe servers, of which you are logged into them 24/7/365 while
enjoying Apple products.

Clearly Apple never advertises that most of the genius of the walled garden
is simply that the user is making use of these Internet services, all of
which are tracked in detail and every one of which contains privacy
metadata which can be detrimental to your privacy & which is saved by
Apple.

When you buy an Apple product - you buy into the dumb-terminal ecosystem.

Here's a snippet of the information Apple maintains due to the inherently
flawed nature (from a privacy standpoint) of the dumb-terminal iOS model.

AccountDetails.xlsx contains basic information about the account holder,
including name, address, phone number, and Apple ID information. It also
includes when an account was created and IP address of the Apple server
used to open the account.

iCloudLogs.xlsx keeps a note on every time one of your devices downloads
data from iCloud, including your photo library, contacts, and Safari
browsing history -- but doesn't contain the actual data.

MailLogs.xlsx also keeps a record of each time something from your Apple
device interacts with your iCloud email account, but no email content is
stored here.

Two more files relate to Apple's flagship end-to-end encrypted messaging
apps, FaceTime and iMessage. Because even Apple can't access the content of
encrypted video calls and text messages, Apple can't turn over the data,
but it can provide information on all the calls and messages that are
routed through its servers.

On 2024-06-28 21:54, Andrew wrote:
> Do the non-Apple common consumer operating systems (android, linux,
> win10/win11) work WITHOUT logging into the mothership mainframe servers?

Yup.

Just fine, thanks.

On 6/28/2024 9:54 PM, Andrew wrote:
> Do the non-Apple common consumer operating systems (android, linux,
> win10/win11) work WITHOUT logging into the mothership mainframe servers?
>
> My only question to the non-Apple newsgroups is whether or not it is a true
> statement of mine that no other common consumer operating system (not even
> Windows 11) requires a mothership tracking account for basic functionality
> (certainly I am well aware Android does not require it).
>
> Is my statement correct for all the non-Apple common consumer systems?
> Q: Does any non-Apple common OS require a mothership account for the
> basic functionality of the operating system that people love about it?
>
> That's all I ask to flesh out here, as I care only about the truth.
>
> I will only respond to those who stick to the topic of whether the
> non-Apple operating systems ALSO are set up on the dumb-terminal model
> (with the inherent loss of privacy, particularly in meta-data collection).
>
> Below is simply a note I wrote today, in response to a question on the
> Apple iOS newsgroup about what happens if you DENY Apple's daily requests
> to log into their mainframe servers in order to obtain basic iOS
> functionality (which I did on two iPads for two years and Apple bricked
> them at the conclusion of those two years of refusing to log into Apple).
>
> ===< Please cut below for the content of the message I wrote for iOS >===
> From: Andrew <andrew@spam.net>
> Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.mobile.ipad
> Subject: Re: Ignoring requests for Apple ID
> Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2024 04:44:43 -0000 (UTC)
> Message-ID: <v5o3fr$148g$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com>
> X-Newsreader: PiaoHong.Usenet.Client.Free:1.65
>
> Your Name wrote on Sat, 29 Jun 2024 16:11:51 +1200 :
>
> > On 2024-06-29 01:29:59 +0000, <bp@www.zefox.net> said:
> >>
> >> For some time the iPhone6 I carry for emergencies has asked
> >> for my apple ID. I always touch "not now" and go about my
> >> business. So far, there hasn't been any repercussion and
> >> the phone works when I need it.
> >>
> >> Why is the phone asking, and will something bad happen, like the
> >> phone not working, if I keep hitting "not now"?
> >>
> >> Thanks for reading,
> >>
> >> bob prohaska
> >
> > Shouldn't be any problem, but there are many reasons why it might be
> > asking for it, so you may want to look into why it keeps asking. Apple
> > ID is required for things like iCloud features, updating of apps of
> > iOS, recent changes to your Touch ID or Face ID, etc., etc.
>
> When you buy an Apple product - you buy into the dumb-terminal ecosystem.
>
> Worse, you buy into Apple storing huge amounts of your metadata on the net!
> *I asked Apple for all my data. Here's what was sent back*
> <https://www.zdnet.com/article/apple-data-collection-stored-request/>
>
> These files "contain metadata, like when and who I messaged or called on
> FaceTime" which is a privacy flaw inherent in the dumb-terminal model.
>
> For example, Apple unilaterally inserts, into every IPA you install, a
> *unique* code specific only to you so that Apple can track app activity.
>
> For example, Apple keeps a copy of every app and song you have ever
> downloaded and every tune you've ever added to your iTunes music library.
>
> Most users are completely unaware there is no common consumer operating
> system other than Apple's which require you to constantly log into their
> mothership servers for the basic functionality you know & love about iOS.
>
> And Apple never advertises the huge amount of data it stores about you.
> ���*Apple took 8 days to give me the data it had collected on me. It was
> eye opening*
> ���<https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/talkingtech/2018/05/04/asked-apple-everything-had-me-heres-what-got/558362002/>
>
> Apple uses some of this immense data to"sell targeted ads based on our
> interests in the News and App Store apps" (see that in the references cited
> since most of the Apple religious zealots hate all truths about Apple).
>
> 1. The walled garden does not work if you don't log into Apple servers.
> 2. There are *many* Apple servers you need to log into for it to work.
> 3. There's the iCloud & the Apple AppStore, Messages, Facetime, etc.
>
> On two separate iPads, I have refused to log into those accounts, and what
> happens, naturally, is you are eventually unable to use the walled garden.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/LXzB3Lc0/appleid01.jpg> Apple _forces_ a log in!
> <https://i.postimg.cc/ZR5mZ287/appleid07.jpg> Apple fails App Store test
> <https://i.postimg.cc/TwN6P0QR/appleid08.jpg> Only Apple requires a login
> <https://i.postimg.cc/8k3GQyj4/appleid09.jpg> Apple tracks your activity
> <https://i.postimg.cc/hhFNJ5mq/appleid010.jpg> Apps become non functional
> <https://i.postimg.cc/nrFHSvby/appleid11.jpg> Apple _forces_ extra logins!
> <https://i.postimg.cc/Y9kkj19v/appleid12.jpg> Apple tracking server login
>
> But you can use "some" of the features of the walled garden; just not all.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/9XtgRz0y/mothership01.jpg> Apple forces verification
> <https://i.postimg.cc/q73jkvWh/mothership02.jpg> into mothership trackers
> <https://i.postimg.cc/7hmNBGJc/mothership03.jpg> Safari & Chrome work fine
> <https://i.postimg.cc/GhmK4QZ1/mothership04.jpg> So does Youtube work fine
> <https://i.postimg.cc/vBv7BghB/mothership05.jpg> No problem with web pages
> <https://i.postimg.cc/xjtyVmqp/mothership06.jpg> The walled garden fails
> <https://i.postimg.cc/ht79m3sN/mothership07.jpg> iMessage garden fails
> <https://i.postimg.cc/5tBL7YZ3/mothership08.jpg> FaceTime garden fails
> <https://i.postimg.cc/Y09FCXjn/mothership09.jpg> App Store finds 1Blocker
> <https://i.postimg.cc/tC869Nbk/mothership10.jpg> App Store installs apps
> <https://i.postimg.cc/FKVkgtLC/mothership11.jpg> But it won't do iCloud
>
> Which means, Apple designed iOS as a "dumb terminal" which gets much of its
> beloved functionality only by logging into Apple's mainframe servers for
> most of the beloved walled-garden functionality - without which - the iOS
> device reverts to a dumb terminal that can't do what you love about iOS.
>
> Paradoxically, while all the beloved walled-garden functionality eventually
> disappears after about two years (tested on two different iPads) of
> refusing to log into the walled-garden Apple servers, the one functionality
> that remained was the capability of updating your operating system version.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/hvhgB91S/update01.jpg> iPadOS 16.3.1 is available
> <https://i.postimg.cc/Qtfsw654/update02.jpg> 16.3.1 Update Requested
> <https://i.postimg.cc/vmLGL8md/update03.jpg> About 10 minutes remaining
> <https://i.postimg.cc/d11gkJk6/update04.jpg> Preparing Update
> <https://i.postimg.cc/rw1B7n21/update05.jpg> Downloaded
> <https://i.postimg.cc/yN7MKm7w/update06.jpg> Finish Setting Up iPad
> <https://i.postimg.cc/13DSsRwN/update07.jpg> More for your iPad
> <https://i.postimg.cc/Xv80B22j/update08.jpg> Update Apple ID Settings
> <https://i.postimg.cc/TYLGNJP0/update09.jpg> iPadOS Version 16.3.1
> <https://i.postimg.cc/L509Yy8Y/update10.jpg> Sign in to iCloud
> <https://i.postimg.cc/zvfDfm8Y/update11.jpg> Finished Setting up iPad
> <https://i.postimg.cc/Z5Nbnxtn/update12.jpg> Verifying update...
>
> In summary, of all common consumer operating systems (including Windows
> 11), only the Apple operating systems are designed essentially as dumb
> terminals which don't do what you love about them without logging into the
> mainframe servers, of which you are logged into them 24/7/365 while
> enjoying Apple products.
>
> Clearly Apple never advertises that most of the genius of the walled garden
> is simply that the user is making use of these Internet services, all of
> which are tracked in detail and every one of which contains privacy
> metadata which can be detrimental to your privacy & which is saved by
> Apple.
>
> When you buy an Apple product - you buy into the dumb-terminal ecosystem.
>
> Here's a snippet of the information Apple maintains due to the inherently
> flawed nature (from a privacy standpoint) of the dumb-terminal iOS model.
>
> AccountDetails.xlsx contains basic information about the account holder,
> including name, address, phone number, and Apple ID information. It also
> includes when an account was created and IP address of the Apple server
> used to open the account.
>
> iCloudLogs.xlsx keeps a note on every time one of your devices downloads
> data from iCloud, including your photo library, contacts, and Safari
> browsing history -- but doesn't contain the actual data.
>
> MailLogs.xlsx also keeps a record of each time something from your Apple
> device interacts with your iCloud email account, but no email content is
> stored here.
>
> Two more files relate to Apple's flagship end-to-end encrypted messaging
> apps, FaceTime and iMessage. Because even Apple can't access the content of
> encrypted video calls and text messages, Apple can't turn over the data,
> but it can provide information on all the calls and messages that are
> routed through its servers.
>
> In both the FaceTime and IDS (iMessage) logs, notes read that the logs only
> indicate if there was an attempt to place a FaceTime call or to send an
> iMessage, because both requests are sent through Apple's servers. But
> neither log whether the call was made or message was sent, let alone if it
> was successful.
>
> In a separate folder, another batch of Excel documents contained
> information mostly pertaining to with my interactions with Apple, like
> downloads and support requests.
>
> AOS Orders contains an entire history of devices and accessories I've
> bought from Apple dating back to my first purchase. It also includes the
> five separate occasions I bought new earphones roughly once per year
> because my cat had chewed through them.
>
> CRM Installed Product is a list of every Apple device ever bought,
> including highly detailed information -- like serial numbers, a note on if
> a device is unlocked, unique networking MAC addresses for Bluetooth,
> Ethernet and Wi-Fi connections, and any other identifying information on a
> device.
>
> Read also: What would Steve Jobs think of today's Apple?
>
> CRM AppleCare Case Contact contains basic contact information on the
> account holder, such as name, address, and phone number -- and if the user
> opts into marketing emails and phone calls.
>
> CRM AppleCare Case Header included every interaction I've had with customer
> support. Every time you call, a company representatives make notes about
> the customer's problem, and also describes the next steps or the outcome of
> the call.
>
> CRM Warranty includes all the information on a device owner's warranty,
> what AppleCare coverage they have -- if any, and when warranties expire.
>
> DS Signons is a long list of every time you logged in to iTunes and from
> which specific device, and contains peripheral information like if the
> login failed.
>
> Game Center predictably contains information on all the gaming sessions a
> user has played or interacted with -- which in my case, as you'd expect, is
> limited to almost zero.
>
> iForgot keeps a log of every time you visited your Apple ID page on the
> web, or reset your password.
>
> iTunes Match Uploads retains a record of every song you've ever uploaded to
> iTunes Match service, which matches your music with higher quality and
> downloads that copy instead. The list also includes your user agent
> information, which can identify your device.
>
> iTunes Match Downloads similarly keeps a list of all matched music that's
> later downloaded from iTunes Match.
>
> iTunes Downloads contains a user's entire download history since the
> account's creation -- from apps, songs, albums, videos, and movies -- from
> the iTunes Store. It also includes information on which device the item was
> downloaded and its IP address.
>
> Repair Transaction Details recounts every time you put in a repair request
> with Apple, and includes information on what the issue is, any notes made
> by Apple staff, and any information that identifies the device, such as a
> phone's IMEI number.
>
> Marketing Contact includes the information that Apple uses to contact you
> for marketing reasons, and the reason why -- such as if the user has a
> developer account.
>
> In summary, the advantage of Apple's dumb-terminal design of iOS is most of
> the magic you love about the walled garden is handled by Internet servers
> (which is why all that is reproduced in Android, only with the addition of
> all platform compatibility - not just Apple platforms - if you're willing
> to log into an Internet server to perform those walled-garden tasks).
>
> The disadvantage of every app you use being tracked by Apple and every
> action being tracked by your Internet login into the mainframe servers,
> is Apple tracks a hellova lot of meta data about you that impacts privacy.
>
> ===< Please cut above for the content of the message I wrote for iOS >===
Andrew,
You must be out of your mind to concern yourself
with this kind of thing.

On 6/29/2024 12:54 AM, Andrew wrote:
> Do the non-Apple common consumer operating systems (android, linux,
> win10/win11) work WITHOUT logging into the mothership mainframe servers?
>
> My only question to the non-Apple newsgroups is whether or not it is a true
> statement of mine that no other common consumer operating system (not even
> Windows 11) requires a mothership tracking account for basic functionality
> (certainly I am well aware Android does not require it).
>
> Is my statement correct for all the non-Apple common consumer systems?
> Q: Does any non-Apple common OS require a mothership account for the
> basic functionality of the operating system that people love about it?

You can ask ecosystem questions, of Copilot.

*******

Question for CoPilot:

Of all the Apple hardware products, which products require a
cloud login to function day-to-day ?

Answer:

Apple's hardware products are designed to work seamlessly with their
ecosystem of services. While most Apple devices can function independently
without a constant cloud connection, some features and services do rely
on cloud integration.

Here are the key products and scenarios where cloud login is relevant:

1. **iPhone and iPad**:
- **iCloud**: iPhones and iPads heavily rely on iCloud for features
like device backup, photo synchronization, Find My iPhone,
and seamless app data sharing across devices.
- **App Store**: To download apps from the App Store, users need an
Apple ID (which is tied to iCloud).

2. **MacBooks and iMacs**:
- **iCloud**: Similar to iOS devices, Macs use iCloud for data synchronization, Keychain, and Find My Mac.
- **App Store**: To download apps from the Mac App Store, users need an Apple ID.

3. **Apple Watch**:
- **iCloud**: Apple Watches sync health data, watch faces, and settings through iCloud.
- **Activation Lock**: If the watch is lost or stolen, Activation Lock prevents unauthorized use.

4. **Apple TV**:
- **Apple ID**: Users need an Apple ID to access the App Store, stream content from
Apple TV+, and use features like HomeKit.

5. **HomePod and HomePod mini**:
- **Apple ID**: HomePods require an Apple ID for setup and access to
Apple Music, HomeKit, and personalized features.

6. **AirPods and AirPods Pro**:
- While AirPods themselves don't require cloud login, features like
automatic switching between devices and Find My AirPods rely on iCloud.

7. **Apple Services**:
- **Apple Music**: Requires an Apple Music subscription and iCloud Music Library
for seamless music streaming across devices.
- **Apple TV+**: Subscribers need an Apple ID to access Apple's streaming service.
- **iMessage and FaceTime**: These messaging services work across devices using iCloud.

8. **HomeKit-Compatible Devices**:
- Devices like smart lights, thermostats, and security cameras integrated with
HomeKit require an Apple ID for setup and remote control via iCloud.

Remember that while cloud login enhances the user experience by enabling synchronization
and seamless transitions between devices, it's not strictly necessary for basic functionality.
Users can choose to use local accounts for some features and services.

Source: Conversation with Copilot, 6/29/2024
(1) Introduction to Apple platform security - Apple Support.
https://support.apple.com/guide/security/intro-to-apple-platform-security-seccd5016d31/web

(2) Apple at Work - Platform Security.
https://www.apple.com/business/docs/site/AAW_Platform_Security.pdf

(3) How to use Apple’s advanced iCloud security tools.
https://www.computerworld.com/article/1618339/how-to-use-apples-advanced-icloud-security-tools.html

*******

Question: When using ChromeOS, do I need a cloud login to make it work ?

**ChromeOS**, the operating system developed by Google, is designed to
work seamlessly with cloud-based services. Here are some key points regarding ChromeOS and cloud login:

1. **Cloud-Centric Approach**:
- **ChromeOS** is inherently cloud-centric. It relies heavily on cloud services for
storage, synchronization, and application functionality.

- When you sign in to a Chromebook or ChromeOS device, you typically use your
**Google Account** credentials. This account serves as your gateway to
the cloud-based ecosystem.

2. **Google Account Sign-In**:
- **Users must enter their Google Account username and password each time they
sign in to their device**.

- If your organization uses **SAML single sign-on (SSO)** for devices, users
are directed to the SAML identity provider (IdP) page without manually
entering their email address².

3. **ChromeOS Flex**:
- Google offers **ChromeOS Flex**, a secure, cloud-based OS for PCs and Macs.
It brings the benefits of ChromeOS to existing devices.

- With **ChromeOS Flex**, you can make your existing PCs and Macs faster and
more secure. It offers features like 6-second boot-up times and automatic background updates.

- Set-up is straightforward: create a bootable ChromeOS Flex USB drive, install
it on your PC or Mac to replace the existing operating system, and upgrade
other legacy devices via USB or network deployment¹.

4. **Offline Capabilities**:
- While ChromeOS is cloud-centric, it does have **offline capabilities**.
You can work offline with certain apps and files.
- However, the full power of ChromeOS is realized when connected to the internet,
as it leverages cloud services for data storage, synchronization, and collaboration⁵.

In summary, while ChromeOS doesn't strictly require a cloud login, its
design philosophy revolves around cloud integration. Whether you're using
a Chromebook or ChromeOS on other devices, having a Google Account enhances
the experience by enabling seamless access to cloud-based services.

Source: Conversation with Copilot, 6/29/2024
(1) Set ChromeOS device policies - Chrome Enterprise and Education Help.
https://support.google.com/chrome/a/answer/1375678?hl=en
(2) Upgrade Your PC: Faster and More Secure with ChromeOS Flex.
https://chromeos.google/products/chromeos-flex/
(3) Chrome OS offline: Can you really use a Chromebook without the cloud ....
https://www.computerworld.com/article/1485641/chrome-os-offline-can-you-really-use-a-chromebook-without-the-cloud.html

(4) Google: We don't need Chrome OS, we want cloud login for PCs.
https://www.zdnet.com/article/google-we-dont-need-chrome-os-we-want-cloud-login-for-pcs/ <==== Year 2011

(5) Get started with Chrome & ChromeOS device management.
https://support.google.com/chromebook/answer/13781354?hl=en

Article number (4) there, highlights the financial importance of
associating an account with an advertising profile you have for sale.

Paul

On 6/29/24 12:54 AM, Andrew wrote:
> Do the non-Apple common consumer operating systems (android, linux,
> win10/win11) work WITHOUT logging into the mothership mainframe servers?
>
> My only question to the non-Apple newsgroups is whether or not it is a true
> statement of mine that no other common consumer operating system (not even
> Windows 11) requires a mothership tracking account for basic functionality
> (certainly I am well aware Android does not require it).

As far as I have seen, Linux does not require any hooks into any Windows, Google, Apple, Mac
connections.
As you or something in your article said, adding account logins just enhances the experience. I
myself use the google calendar events that show on my Android phone and now show on my Linux calendar.
--
Linux Mint 21.3, Cinnamon 6.0.4, Kernel 5.15.0-113-generic
Al

Paul wrote on Sat, 29 Jun 2024 03:47:18 -0400 :

> You can ask ecosystem questions, of Copilot.

Hi Paul,
I studied AI in the late 1970's in grad school, and it bored me even then
(at that time it was all about probabilities and correcting them
endlessly), so I haven't kept up with the capabilities of AI lately.

Googling...

1. Copilot (Microsoft, previously BingChat, included in Windows 11,
apparently Copilot is on Windows 10 but in some limited fashion)
� <https://www.pcmag.com/how-to/how-to-use-microsoft-copilot-ai-what-to-try>
� <https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/welcome-to-copilot-on-windows-675708af-8c16-4675-afeb-85a5a476ccb0>
2. Gemini (Google, requires account, privacy implications)
<https://dorik.com/blog/how-to-use-gemini-ai>
3. ChatGPT (apparently it does not require a login to work via text only)
<https://chatgpt.com/auth/login>
<https://www.howtogeek.com/how-to-run-chatgpt-as-a-windows-app/>
4. Apple AI (doesn't actually work in the real world, only iPhone 15 Pro,
& doesn't work in Europe, etc., so it's mostly mere marketing fluff)
� <https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2024/06/introducing-apple-intelligence-for-iphone-ipad-and-mac/>
5. Others?

The trick, of course, at least for free, is to get one of these to work via
voice alone (STT and then TTS), which I do not think exists yet. Does it?

> *******
>
> Question for CoPilot:
>
> Of all the Apple hardware products, which products require a
> cloud login to function day-to-day ?
>
> Answer:
>
> Apple's hardware products are designed to work seamlessly with their
> ecosystem of services. While most Apple devices can function independently
> without a constant cloud connection, some features and services do rely
> on cloud integration.
>
> Here are the key products and scenarios where cloud login is relevant:
>
> 1. **iPhone and iPad**:
> - **iCloud**: iPhones and iPads heavily rely on iCloud for features
> like device backup, photo synchronization, Find My iPhone,
> and seamless app data sharing across devices.
> - **App Store**: To download apps from the App Store, users need an
> Apple ID (which is tied to iCloud).
>
> 2. **MacBooks and iMacs**:
> - **iCloud**: Similar to iOS devices, Macs use iCloud for data synchronization, Keychain, and Find My Mac.
> - **App Store**: To download apps from the Mac App Store, users need an Apple ID.
>
> 3. **Apple Watch**:
> - **iCloud**: Apple Watches sync health data, watch faces, and settings through iCloud.
> - **Activation Lock**: If the watch is lost or stolen, Activation Lock prevents unauthorized use.
>
> 4. **Apple TV**:
> - **Apple ID**: Users need an Apple ID to access the App Store, stream content from
> Apple TV+, and use features like HomeKit.
>
> 5. **HomePod and HomePod mini**:
> - **Apple ID**: HomePods require an Apple ID for setup and access to
> Apple Music, HomeKit, and personalized features.
>
> 6. **AirPods and AirPods Pro**:
> - While AirPods themselves don't require cloud login, features like
> automatic switching between devices and Find My AirPods rely on iCloud.
>
> 7. **Apple Services**:
> - **Apple Music**: Requires an Apple Music subscription and iCloud Music Library
> for seamless music streaming across devices.
> - **Apple TV+**: Subscribers need an Apple ID to access Apple's streaming service.
> - **iMessage and FaceTime**: These messaging services work across devices using iCloud.
>
> 8. **HomeKit-Compatible Devices**:
> - Devices like smart lights, thermostats, and security cameras integrated with
> HomeKit require an Apple ID for setup and remote control via iCloud.

This is a good summary Paul. Very good. Thanks. AI is useful I guess.

Notice that the users' App Store login is required ONLY on Apple devices;
it is not required on Android or Linux or Windows (AFAIAA).

I haven't had any Google (or Samsung) account on my Galaxy for years, and I
can easily download off the Google Play Store repository without it.

Having said that, I do realize most people log into their Google Account to
download apps from the Google Play Store; but it turns out that there are
FOSS Google Play Store clients (such as Aurora) that negate that need.
<https://aurorastore.org/> & <https://auroraoss.com/>

Same with YouTube, where there are FOSS YouTube clients which negate the
need to create an account on your phone & still get full functionality.
<https://newpipe.net/>

Same with the MUA, where there are plenty of privacy-aware MUAs on Android.
<https://email.faircode.eu/>

I don't know all that it's missing but I know it's missing the fact that
the messaging app, the way 99.99% of Apple users use it anyway, requires
logging into the Apple Messaging servers. Which is a horrible privacy hole.

The Apple users "think" they have privacy; but it's only because Apple
cleverly advertises that - but in reality - Apple knows EVERY message they
make (due to the extensive metadata that Apple gets from the login action).

Note: The iOS messages app can work with SMS/MMS *without logging into*
Apple's servers, but only 0.01% of Apple users would even know that, and
even fewer would do that because they then lose the walled-garden niceties
that the dumb-terminal design of the iPhone/iPad provide those users.

Bear in mind, the dumb-terminal design has merits even in non Apple worlds.

If Linux/Android/Windows users felt like logging into an Internet server,
they too would have all that walled-garden magic - plus compatibility.
<https://home.pulsesms.app/overview/>

Speaking of all the nice things that happen when you log into Internet
servers, I'm sure WhatsApp, Signal, Telegram, and many others using the
dumb-terminal concept also get those niceties - but since they're not
required to use messaging on Android, Linux and Windows, they're extras.

> Remember that while cloud login enhances the user experience by enabling synchronization
> and seamless transitions between devices, it's not strictly necessary for basic functionality.
> Users can choose to use local accounts for some features and services.

The cloud itself isn't required for "basic functionality", but you can't do
all the messaging things Apple owners crow about (like saving all your
messages) without the dumb-terminal logging into the mainframe server - as
most of those magical things (like the end-to-end encryption) require the
metadata-saving account on the server.

> Source: Conversation with Copilot, 6/29/2024
> (1) Introduction to Apple platform security - Apple Support.
> https://support.apple.com/guide/security/intro-to-apple-platform-security-seccd5016d31/web
>
> (2) Apple at Work - Platform Security.
> https://www.apple.com/business/docs/site/AAW_Platform_Security.pdf
>
> (3) How to use Apple's advanced iCloud security tools.
> https://www.computerworld.com/article/1618339/how-to-use-apples-advanced-icloud-security-tools.html
>
> *******
>
> Question: When using ChromeOS, do I need a cloud login to make it work ?
>
> **ChromeOS**, the operating system developed by Google, is designed to
> work seamlessly with cloud-based services. Here are some key points regarding ChromeOS and cloud login:
>
> 1. **Cloud-Centric Approach**:
> - **ChromeOS** is inherently cloud-centric. It relies heavily on cloud services for
> storage, synchronization, and application functionality.
>
> - When you sign in to a Chromebook or ChromeOS device, you typically use your
> **Google Account** credentials. This account serves as your gateway to
> the cloud-based ecosystem.
>
> 2. **Google Account Sign-In**:
> - **Users must enter their Google Account username and password each time they
> sign in to their device**.
>
> - If your organization uses **SAML single sign-on (SSO)** for devices, users
> are directed to the SAML identity provider (IdP) page without manually
> entering their email address².
>
> 3. **ChromeOS Flex**:
> - Google offers **ChromeOS Flex**, a secure, cloud-based OS for PCs and Macs.
> It brings the benefits of ChromeOS to existing devices.
>
> - With **ChromeOS Flex**, you can make your existing PCs and Macs faster and
> more secure. It offers features like 6-second boot-up times and automatic background updates.
>
> - Set-up is straightforward: create a bootable ChromeOS Flex USB drive, install
> it on your PC or Mac to replace the existing operating system, and upgrade
> other legacy devices via USB or network deployment¹.
>
> 4. **Offline Capabilities**:
> - While ChromeOS is cloud-centric, it does have **offline capabilities**.
> You can work offline with certain apps and files.
> - However, the full power of ChromeOS is realized when connected to the internet,
> as it leverages cloud services for data storage, synchronization, and collaboration⁵.
>
> In summary, while ChromeOS doesn't strictly require a cloud login, its
> design philosophy revolves around cloud integration. Whether you're using
> a Chromebook or ChromeOS on other devices, having a Google Account enhances
> the experience by enabling seamless access to cloud-based services.

Big Al wrote on Sat, 29 Jun 2024 14:13:38 -0400 :

> As far as I have seen, Linux does not require any hooks into any Windows, Google, Apple, Mac
> connections.

Thanks for checking on Linux, as I haven't used 'nix since I stopped dual
booting to Centos & Windows 10 (to turn off Windows update), long ago.

Paul brought up ChromeOS, which does use, pretty much, the dumb-terminal
concept which negates basic functionality if you're not logged in 24/7/365.

Even Windows S, kind of, is a dumb-terminal concept in that it requires you
to use the Windows App Store (as far as I know) for basic functionality.

1. Linux = does not require mothership login for basic functionality
2. ChromeOS = essentially requires mothership login for basic functionality
3. Windows S = requires mothership login for basic functionality
4. Windows 10 = does not require mothership login for basic functionality
5. Windows 11 = I think it does not require the mothership login (right?)

> As you or something in your article said, adding account logins just enhances the experience.

+1. Agree.

There is no doubt that having an Internet login "enhances the experience".

Although, once you're on Linux, there are plenty of servers you can use!
a. Home Calendar server
<https://www.linux.com/training-tutorials/five-best-open-source-calendar-servers-linux/>
b. Home WebDav server
<https://reintech.io/blog/installing-configuring-webdav-server-ubuntu-22>
c. Home FileSync server
<https://www.resilio.com/blog/linux-file-sync>
d. Home CardDav contacts server
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CardDAV>

Although there are some Windows servers, most work best with Linux, right?
<https://help.goodsync.com/hc/en-us/articles/360002527572-Syncing-in-a-mixed-environment>

There is a ton of "magic" that the dumb-terminal gains by logging into the
huge mainframe servers, of that there is no doubt.

That's where Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp, PulseSMS, etc., gain much of their
magic; but there's also a privacy downside to the fact that every single
thing you do is tied to a single well-identified username & password
account (particularly when meta data is stored and hence can be retrieved).

Personally, I prefer that Internet account to be "optional", much as it is
with Windows 10 where I can't think of a single app that I'd want from the
Microsoft Store that I can't get from outside of the Microsoft Store.

Can you?

> I myself use the google calendar events that show on my Android phone and now show on my Linux calendar.

Yes. Agreed.

Personally, I prefer to set up my own calendar server, for privacy.

But here's where Linux is better than all the other platforms in that the
WebDAV and CalDAV and CardDav, etc., servers are usually best on Linux.

Right?

Andrew wrote:
> Paul wrote on Sat, 29 Jun 2024 03:47:18 -0400 :
>
>> You can ask ecosystem questions, of Copilot.
>
> Hi Paul,
> I studied AI in the late 1970's in grad school, and it bored me even then
> (at that time it was all about probabilities and correcting them
> endlessly), so I haven't kept up with the capabilities of AI lately.
>
> Googling...
>
> 1. Copilot (Microsoft, previously BingChat, included in Windows 11,
> apparently Copilot is on Windows 10 but in some limited fashion)
> í°  <https://www.pcmag.com/how-to/how-to-use-microsoft-copilot-ai-what-to-try>
> í°  <https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/welcome-to-copilot-on-windows-675708af-8c16-4675-afeb-85a5a476ccb0>
> 2. Gemini (Google, requires account, privacy implications)
> <https://dorik.com/blog/how-to-use-gemini-ai>
> 3. ChatGPT (apparently it does not require a login to work via text only)
> <https://chatgpt.com/auth/login>
> <https://www.howtogeek.com/how-to-run-chatgpt-as-a-windows-app/>
> 4. Apple AI (doesn't actually work in the real world, only iPhone 15 Pro,
> & doesn't work in Europe, etc., so it's mostly mere marketing fluff)
> í°  <https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2024/06/introducing-apple-intelligence-for-iphone-ipad-and-mac/>
> 5. Others?
>
> The trick, of course, at least for free, is to get one of these to work via
> voice alone (STT and then TTS), which I do not think exists yet. Does it?
>
>> *******
>>
>> Question for CoPilot:
>>
>> Of all the Apple hardware products, which products require a
>> cloud login to function day-to-day ?
>>
>> Answer:
>>
>> Apple's hardware products are designed to work seamlessly with their
>> ecosystem of services. While most Apple devices can function independently
>> without a constant cloud connection, some features and services do rely
>> on cloud integration.
>>
>> Here are the key products and scenarios where cloud login is relevant:
>>
>> 1. **iPhone and iPad**:
>> - **iCloud**: iPhones and iPads heavily rely on iCloud for features
>> like device backup, photo synchronization, Find My iPhone,
>> and seamless app data sharing across devices.
>> - **App Store**: To download apps from the App Store, users need an
>> Apple ID (which is tied to iCloud).
>>
>> 2. **MacBooks and iMacs**:
>> - **iCloud**: Similar to iOS devices, Macs use iCloud for data synchronization, Keychain, and Find My Mac.
>> - **App Store**: To download apps from the Mac App Store, users need an Apple ID.
>>
>> 3. **Apple Watch**:
>> - **iCloud**: Apple Watches sync health data, watch faces, and settings through iCloud.
>> - **Activation Lock**: If the watch is lost or stolen, Activation Lock prevents unauthorized use.
>>
>> 4. **Apple TV**:
>> - **Apple ID**: Users need an Apple ID to access the App Store, stream content from
>> Apple TV+, and use features like HomeKit.
>>
>> 5. **HomePod and HomePod mini**:
>> - **Apple ID**: HomePods require an Apple ID for setup and access to
>> Apple Music, HomeKit, and personalized features.
>>
>> 6. **AirPods and AirPods Pro**:
>> - While AirPods themselves don't require cloud login, features like
>> automatic switching between devices and Find My AirPods rely on iCloud.
>>
>> 7. **Apple Services**:
>> - **Apple Music**: Requires an Apple Music subscription and iCloud Music Library
>> for seamless music streaming across devices.
>> - **Apple TV+**: Subscribers need an Apple ID to access Apple's streaming service.
>> - **iMessage and FaceTime**: These messaging services work across devices using iCloud.
>>
>> 8. **HomeKit-Compatible Devices**:
>> - Devices like smart lights, thermostats, and security cameras integrated with
>> HomeKit require an Apple ID for setup and remote control via iCloud.
>
> This is a good summary Paul. Very good. Thanks. AI is useful I guess.
>
> Notice that the users' App Store login is required ONLY on Apple devices;
> it is not required on Android or Linux or Windows (AFAIAA).
>
> I haven't had any Google (or Samsung) account on my Galaxy for years, and I
> can easily download off the Google Play Store repository without it.
>
> Having said that, I do realize most people log into their Google Account to
> download apps from the Google Play Store; but it turns out that there are
> FOSS Google Play Store clients (such as Aurora) that negate that need.
> <https://aurorastore.org/> & <https://auroraoss.com/>
>
> Same with YouTube, where there are FOSS YouTube clients which negate the
> need to create an account on your phone & still get full functionality.
> <https://newpipe.net/>
>
> Same with the MUA, where there are plenty of privacy-aware MUAs on Android.
> <https://email.faircode.eu/>
>
> I don't know all that it's missing but I know it's missing the fact that
> the messaging app, the way 99.99% of Apple users use it anyway, requires
> logging into the Apple Messaging servers. Which is a horrible privacy hole.
>
> The Apple users "think" they have privacy; but it's only because Apple
> cleverly advertises that - but in reality - Apple knows EVERY message they
> make (due to the extensive metadata that Apple gets from the login action).
>
> Note: The iOS messages app can work with SMS/MMS *without logging into*
> Apple's servers, but only 0.01% of Apple users would even know that, and
> even fewer would do that because they then lose the walled-garden niceties
> that the dumb-terminal design of the iPhone/iPad provide those users.
>
> Bear in mind, the dumb-terminal design has merits even in non Apple worlds.
>
> If Linux/Android/Windows users felt like logging into an Internet server,
> they too would have all that walled-garden magic - plus compatibility.
> <https://home.pulsesms.app/overview/>
>
> Speaking of all the nice things that happen when you log into Internet
> servers, I'm sure WhatsApp, Signal, Telegram, and many others using the
> dumb-terminal concept also get those niceties - but since they're not
> required to use messaging on Android, Linux and Windows, they're extras.
>
>> Remember that while cloud login enhances the user experience by enabling synchronization
>> and seamless transitions between devices, it's not strictly necessary for basic functionality.
>> Users can choose to use local accounts for some features and services.
>
> The cloud itself isn't required for "basic functionality", but you can't do
> all the messaging things Apple owners crow about (like saving all your
> messages) without the dumb-terminal logging into the mainframe server - as
> most of those magical things (like the end-to-end encryption) require the
> metadata-saving account on the server.
>
>
>> Source: Conversation with Copilot, 6/29/2024
>> (1) Introduction to Apple platform security - Apple Support.
>> https://support.apple.com/guide/security/intro-to-apple-platform-security-seccd5016d31/web
>>
>> (2) Apple at Work - Platform Security.
>> https://www.apple.com/business/docs/site/AAW_Platform_Security.pdf
>>
>> (3) How to use Apple's advanced iCloud security tools.
>> https://www.computerworld.com/article/1618339/how-to-use-apples-advanced-icloud-security-tools.html
>>
>> *******
>>
>> Question: When using ChromeOS, do I need a cloud login to make it work ?
>>
>> **ChromeOS**, the operating system developed by Google, is designed to
>> work seamlessly with cloud-based services. Here are some key points regarding ChromeOS and cloud login:
>>
>> 1. **Cloud-Centric Approach**:
>> - **ChromeOS** is inherently cloud-centric. It relies heavily on cloud services for
>> storage, synchronization, and application functionality.
>>
>> - When you sign in to a Chromebook or ChromeOS device, you typically use your
>> **Google Account** credentials. This account serves as your gateway to
>> the cloud-based ecosystem.
>>
>> 2. **Google Account Sign-In**:
>> - **Users must enter their Google Account username and password each time they
>> sign in to their device**.
>>
>> - If your organization uses **SAML single sign-on (SSO)** for devices, users
>> are directed to the SAML identity provider (IdP) page without manually
>> entering their email address².
>>
>> 3. **ChromeOS Flex**:
>> - Google offers **ChromeOS Flex**, a secure, cloud-based OS for PCs and Macs.
>> It brings the benefits of ChromeOS to existing devices.
>>
>> - With **ChromeOS Flex**, you can make your existing PCs and Macs faster and
>> more secure. It offers features like 6-second boot-up times and automatic background updates.
>>
>> - Set-up is straightforward: create a bootable ChromeOS Flex USB drive, install
>> it on your PC or Mac to replace the existing operating system, and upgrade
>> other legacy devices via USB or network deployment¹.
>>
>> 4. **Offline Capabilities**:
>> - While ChromeOS is cloud-centric, it does have **offline capabilities**.
>> You can work offline with certain apps and files.
>> - However, the full power of ChromeOS is realized when connected to the internet,
>> as it leverages cloud services for data storage, synchronization, and collaboration⁵.
>>
>> In summary, while ChromeOS doesn't strictly require a cloud login, its
>> design philosophy revolves around cloud integration. Whether you're using
>> a Chromebook or ChromeOS on other devices, having a Google Account enhances
>> the experience by enabling seamless access to cloud-based services.
>
> Thank you for bringing up ChromeOS, which has a dumb-terminal use model
> much like Apple does, so it's relevant even as I didn't even think of it.
>
> Come to think of it, like ChromeOS, the Windows S also seems to be designed
> like Apple products are as dumb terminals logging into mainframe servers
> for most of the functionality - even if much of that is simply cloud
> storage (and in the case of Windows S, it's also the Microsoft App Store).
>
> Delving deeper, we have to remember that even the HP Stream devices when
> converted from Windows S to Windows 10 Home or Windows 11 Home are more of
> a dumb-terminal logging-into-a-mainframe-server concept in that they have
> so small of a C:\ drive that you're pretty much "almost" forced into using
> cloud storage (as you can't even pin an app icon onto the Windows task bar
> if you've installed it onto an sdcard in the D:\ drive on HP Stream PCs.
>
>
>> Source: Conversation with Copilot, 6/29/2024
>> (1) Set ChromeOS device policies - Chrome Enterprise and Education Help.
>> https://support.google.com/chrome/a/answer/1375678?hl=en
>> (2) Upgrade Your PC: Faster and More Secure with ChromeOS Flex.
>> https://chromeos.google/products/chromeos-flex/
>> (3) Chrome OS offline: Can you really use a Chromebook without the cloud ....
>> https://www.computerworld.com/article/1485641/chrome-os-offline-can-you-really-use-a-chromebook-without-the-cloud.html
>>
>> (4) Google: We don't need Chrome OS, we want cloud login for PCs.
>> https://www.zdnet.com/article/google-we-dont-need-chrome-os-we-want-cloud-login-for-pcs/ <==== Year 2011
>>
>> (5) Get started with Chrome & ChromeOS device management.
>> https://support.google.com/chromebook/answer/13781354?hl=en
>>
>> Article number (4) there, highlights the financial importance of
>> associating an account with an advertising profile you have for sale.
>
> In short, it seems that ChromeOS and Apple's iOS are both designed, from
> the start, as dumb terminals which are basically non functional if you're
> not constantly logging into the mainframe servers.
>
> The problem with that use model is that without the Internet, almost
> nothing works - and worse - even with the Internet - that one account knows
> every single thing you are doing in terms of metadata collection & storage.
>
> Remember, no other operating system but iOS puts a unique code unique to
> your Apple ID into every IPA app you install - even Google doesn't do that.
>
> Certainly Linux & Windows don't insert a unique ID unique to you for every
> app you've installed.... do they?
>

On Fri, 28 Jun 2024 23:24:36 -0700, bilsch01 <usenet@writer.com>
wrote:

> Andrew,
> You must be out of your mind to concern yourself
> with this kind of thing.

Bill, you must be out of your mind to quote all 245 lines of
Andrew's article to just add your 2 cents.
--
Kees Nuyt

On 6/30/2024 8:49 AM, Kees Nuyt wrote:

>> You must be out of your mind to concern yourself
>> with this kind of thing.
>
> Bill, you must be out of your mind to quote all 245 lines of
> Andrew's article to just add your 2 cents.

It's a worthwhile privacy concern to think about which operating systems
are designed to require logging into the maker's servers for most of the
vital essential services that comprise the core of the operating system.

On Sat, 29 Jun 2024 04:54:02 -0000 (UTC), Andrew <andrew@spam.net>
wrote:

>Do the non-Apple common consumer operating systems (android, linux,
>win10/win11) work WITHOUT logging into the mothership mainframe servers?

I saw a complaint from a Windows 11 user to the effect that it would
not allow him to save stuff locally.

I tried to find out more about it for him and it appears that it
offers a chic, but his machine was set to log in to the MS server, and
he didn't know how to change it.

Someone else told me that Windows 11 does save files locally, but it
is so many levels deep that you have to be a hacker to find them.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

W Sun, 30 Jun 2024 18:43:42 +0200, Steve Hayes napisal:

>>Do the non-Apple common consumer operating systems (android, linux,
>>win10/win11) work WITHOUT logging into the mothership mainframe servers?
>
> I saw a complaint from a Windows 11 user to the effect that it would
> not allow him to save stuff locally.
>
> I tried to find out more about it for him and it appears that it
> offers a chic, but his machine was set to log in to the MS server, and
> he didn't know how to change it.
>
> Someone else told me that Windows 11 does save files locally, but it
> is so many levels deep that you have to be a hacker to find them.

I think Windows 11 wants you to create and continually log into a Microsoft
mainframe server account so that they can start to market products to you
and so they can sell your meta data, but I don't think that Microsoft login
account on the net is required for the essential operation of the device.

On 6/30/2024 12:43 PM, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Jun 2024 04:54:02 -0000 (UTC), Andrew <andrew@spam.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Do the non-Apple common consumer operating systems (android, linux,
>> win10/win11) work WITHOUT logging into the mothership mainframe servers?
>
> I saw a complaint from a Windows 11 user to the effect that it would
> not allow him to save stuff locally.
>
> I tried to find out more about it for him and it appears that it
> offers a chic, but his machine was set to log in to the MS server, and
> he didn't know how to change it.
>
> Someone else told me that Windows 11 does save files locally, but it
> is so many levels deep that you have to be a hacker to find them.

There are a series of steps to it.

https://www.elevenforum.com/t/unable-to-completely-delete-onedrive.26099/

"However, whatever I do, when I create a new document, the file is saved in
"C:\Users\dforr\OneDrive" folder and not
"C:\Users\dforr\Documents" folder as it should be."

It includes things like:

(Do a backup first. If something goes wrong, restore from backup.)

Turn off the [MSFT] Backup option, if it is turned on.

Remove the OneDrive software.

Correct the links in the profile, so they point to local storage.

Visit the OneDrive storage using the web interface, and retrieve your files.

Ruining your profile was likely automated.

Un-ruining it is manual.

And for obvious reasons -- "abuse your customer... profit!" .

*******

When I check this W11Home OS (my daily driver), I notice that:

C:\Users\username\Documents

exists but the OneDrive folder is not under username (any more).
No copy of OneDrive is running on the machine. Obviously something
has happened to OneDrive. Could it have been hit by a bus ?
I don't know, but something happened to it :-) I don't
remember doing it. Musta been the trauma of it going missing.

I might have to find a different OS installation, to see
samples of the files.

Right now, the hardware-test machine, has a new unlicensed W11 on it,
and there is no MSA on it. I'm waiting for that machine to crash.

[Picture]

https://i.postimg.cc/hPnfpKFF/click-the-onedrive-folder-this-happens.gif

Now, that OS is not setup for "Backups", no dialog for Backups was clicked.
A OneDrive executable is running. Clicking the C:\Users\username\OneDrive
folder, prompts for the addition of an MSA to the account, for the storage
involved (on the Microsoft server).

The Properties of three of the folders in my profile, show there is a
"repair" for the linkage. But what we don't know, is whether the repair
option restores the "unblemished" profile, or the repair restores
the OneDrive-preferred [Backup???] setup.

Anyway, I'm not attempting an answer here, just trying to point out that
there are moving parts. Too many moving parts for the people who
are being abused. Is every customer a Level 37 Wizard ? NO.

Do you make friends by doing stuff like this ?

Does Oracle make friends when it does business ? :-/

Does Adobe make friends (now) when it does business ?

I fail to see how treating people poorly, is a good
long term business plan. Yet, the idea is stupidly popular.
Just look at what Broadcom is doing right now, with VMWare.
They sunk a huge amount of money into that acquisition.
As if milk cows come with a guarantee of riches.

Paul

On Mon, 1 Jul 2024 03:29:46 -0400, Paul wrote:

> Right now, the hardware-test machine, has a new unlicensed W11 on it,
> and there is no MSA on it. I'm waiting for that machine to crash.

My desktop can't upgrade to Windows 11 but I'd like to ask if I ever do
upgrade to Windows 11, in simple terms, what are the basic steps NOT to do
in order to NOT have it set up the Windows 11 Microsoft Account on the net?

Also, if I don't set up the Windows 11 MSA for-profit account, what bad
things happen to me?

Jan K. <janicekoziol@nie.ma.spamu.prosze.com> wrote at 17:14 this Sunday (GMT):
> W Sun, 30 Jun 2024 18:43:42 +0200, Steve Hayes napisal:
>
>>>Do the non-Apple common consumer operating systems (android, linux,
>>>win10/win11) work WITHOUT logging into the mothership mainframe servers?
>>
>> I saw a complaint from a Windows 11 user to the effect that it would
>> not allow him to save stuff locally.
>>
>> I tried to find out more about it for him and it appears that it
>> offers a chic, but his machine was set to log in to the MS server, and
>> he didn't know how to change it.
>>
>> Someone else told me that Windows 11 does save files locally, but it
>> is so many levels deep that you have to be a hacker to find them.
>
> I think Windows 11 wants you to create and continually log into a Microsoft
> mainframe server account so that they can start to market products to you
> and so they can sell your meta data, but I don't think that Microsoft login
> account on the net is required for the essential operation of the device.

I'm sure they'll try and find some excuse tho.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

On 7/1/2024 9:50 AM, Nick Cine wrote:
> On Mon, 1 Jul 2024 03:29:46 -0400, Paul wrote:
>
>> Right now, the hardware-test machine, has a new unlicensed W11 on it,
>> and there is no MSA on it. I'm waiting for that machine to crash.
>
> My desktop can't upgrade to Windows 11 but I'd like to ask if I ever do
> upgrade to Windows 11, in simple terms, what are the basic steps NOT to do
> in order to NOT have it set up the Windows 11 Microsoft Account on the net?
>
> Also, if I don't set up the Windows 11 MSA for-profit account, what bad
> things happen to me?
>

I had to do this multiple times, and eventually it worked.
I was doing this on a Win10 the other day, and it wasn't nearly as pestilent:

hit Shift + F10 and type OOBE/BYPASSNRO, which will let you create
a local account instead if you do not have an internet connection
(so disconnect the internet for this).

What that does, is sets a registry entry when you're at or near the
beginning of the Out Of Box Experience sequence after the last phase
of installation completes (75% to 100% phase maybe). After setting the
Registry entry, it reboots the computer, and the OOBE sequence starts
again at the language choice and Machine Name step.

*******

Nothing bad happens to you with a local account. Things which are cloud
related, may need an account to establish the cloud relationship and
keep your goods separated from my goods, on the Cloud server.

But in the case of OneDrive (or for that matter DropBox or whatever),
there is the danger of the end-user not understanding where their
files are, which is the current version, when is a file synchronized
and so on. If a person makes their own backups at home with Macrium,
they have the necessary "clues" right in front of them, as to how
prepared they are for a disaster. OneDrive has the ability to "pull"
a file from remote storage, to some place locally (while you work on it),
and then kick it back to the Cloud. But if some sort of fault develops
in any of the handling of those materials, the "user is nothing but
a victim". If you don't know how it all works, you're a piece of
fly shit on the railroad track.

We know that a rather large company in Australia, lost access to their
Cloud content. Seems the account was deleted or something. We know there
are some rather large gaps in the Cloud. And you could fall through one
of those gaps, onto the ground below. Say, for example, you erase your
TPM or you switch between TPMs, your PIN stops working, re-logging
using your MSA password is not enough, you have to use your recovery
procedure to get back into your fucking session!!! See how pleasant this
state diagram is ? Not pleasant at all. It's like playing Quake, with
pools of lava everywhere to step in.

Paul

W Mon, 1 Jul 2024 14:10:03 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 napisal:

>>> Someone else told me that Windows 11 does save files locally, but it
>>> is so many levels deep that you have to be a hacker to find them.
>>
>> I think Windows 11 wants you to create and continually log into a Microsoft
>> mainframe server account so that they can start to market products to you
>> and so they can sell your meta data, but I don't think that Microsoft login
>> account on the net is required for the essential operation of the device.
>
> I'm sure they'll try and find some excuse tho.

What happens if you do not create that MSA account on Windows 11?

Paul wrote:

[snip]

>> Also, if I don't set up the Windows 11 MSA for-profit account, what bad
>> things happen to me?
>>
>
> I had to do this multiple times, and eventually it worked.
> I was doing this on a Win10 the other day, and it wasn't nearly as pestilent:
>
> hit Shift + F10 and type OOBE/BYPASSNRO, which will let you create a local account

The Shift + F10 combination is to open a command window. On a laptop
with a small keyboard you may find you need Shift + Fn + F10 because the
key marked F10 does not actually generate F10 on its own. You might
need to ask the manufacturer ...

It's important that you don't connect any network until AFTER you have
created the local account.

No bad things happen with only local accounts. You won't be able to
activate modern MS Office apps or the like without having a MSA. But you
never need to log into the machine with one.

--
Graham J

On 7/1/2024 8:42 AM, Jan K. wrote:

> What happens if you do not create that MSA account on Windows 11?

Can't speak for W11 but I'm posting with a cheapie 10" laptop that I
bought a few months ago (from Amazon, where else?) that came with a W10
Pro local account (no MS sign up requested). I've not had any problems
for my use yet. YMMV of course...

Jan K. wrote:

> What happens if you do not create that MSA account on Windows 11?

To me, on this Win11 Home laptop ... nothing.
I think it asked me once to "finish off installing" or some such phrase.

W Mon, 1 Jul 2024 19:22:37 +0100, Andy Burns napisal:

>> What happens if you do not create that MSA account on Windows 11?
>
> To me, on this Win11 Home laptop ... nothing.
> I think it asked me once to "finish off installing" or some such phrase.

What is confusing is how nonchalant everyone is /today/ about the ability
to simply not create a Windows 11 MSA - but when Windows 11 first came out
- it seemed everyone was saying that you must create an online MSA account.

What changed?

On 7/1/2024 6:39 PM, Jan K. wrote:
> W Mon, 1 Jul 2024 19:22:37 +0100, Andy Burns napisal:
>
>>> What happens if you do not create that MSA account on Windows 11?
>>
>> To me, on this Win11 Home laptop ... nothing.
>> I think it asked me once to "finish off installing" or some such phrase.
>
> What is confusing is how nonchalant everyone is /today/ about the ability
> to simply not create a Windows 11 MSA - but when Windows 11 first came out
> - it seemed everyone was saying that you must create an online MSA account.
>
> What changed?

You might have been hearing some public relations material.

Like this material. This is "how we do things at the ranch".

https://www.tomshardware.com/software/windows/windows-11-24h2-will-enable-bitlocker-encryption-for-everyone-happens-on-both-clean-installs-and-reinstalls

"published 7 May 2024

Windows 11 24H2 will enable BitLocker encryption for everyone
— happens on both clean installs and reinstalls

You can still manually disable encryption if desired.
"

"The easiest method is to create a bootable ISO through Rufus USB,
which has the ability to disable Windows 11 24H2's drive encryption."

That's a "wear and tear play" on your nerves. Is it working ?

Well we have solutions for this. Nobody puts unnecessary wear on
my equipment and gets away with it.

Now, if you want to put a slider switch on one of the OOBE
panels for this, as an "Opt-In", I'm all for it. But of course
it "wouldn't be the Ranch if we did it that way, now would it".

# First step, is set your limiter to "11" "23H2" which is 22631.xxx
# You do not want a surprise attack, as a starting step.

https://www.grc.com/incontrol.htm

Paul

On Sun, 30 Jun 2024 12:31:18 -0400, Larry Wolff
<larrywolff@larrywolff.net> wrote:

>On 6/30/2024 8:49 AM, Kees Nuyt wrote:
>
>>> You must be out of your mind to concern yourself
>>> with this kind of thing.
>>
>> Bill, you must be out of your mind to quote all 245 lines of
>> Andrew's article to just add your 2 cents.
>
>It's a worthwhile privacy concern to think about which operating systems
>are designed to require logging into the maker's servers for most of the
>vital essential services that comprise the core of the operating system.

It's not just a privacy concern.

The point about laptop computers is that they are *portable*. You can
take them to meetings at remote locations where there is no internet
access. You can take them to libraries and archives to do research.
You can use them (for a while) if the mains electricity goes off.

Being tethered to the mothership means that portable computers cease
to be portable and are forced to be, well, tethered.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

On Mon, 1 Jul 2024 17:42:38 +0200, "Jan K."
<janicekoziol@nie.ma.spamu.prosze.com> wrote:

>W Mon, 1 Jul 2024 14:10:03 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 napisal:
>
>>>> Someone else told me that Windows 11 does save files locally, but it
>>>> is so many levels deep that you have to be a hacker to find them.
>>>
>>> I think Windows 11 wants you to create and continually log into a Microsoft
>>> mainframe server account so that they can start to market products to you
>>> and so they can sell your meta data, but I don't think that Microsoft login
>>> account on the net is required for the essential operation of the device.
>>
>> I'm sure they'll try and find some excuse tho.
>
>What happens if you do not create that MSA account on Windows 11?

It works.

It does on my wife's computer.

But the problem seems to start when people either set up such an
account without knowing its limitations, or perhaps have it set up for
them by the vendor.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

On Mon, 1 Jul 2024 07:50:22 -0600, Nick Cine <nickcine@is.invalid>
wrote:

>My desktop can't upgrade to Windows 11 but I'd like to ask if I ever do
>upgrade to Windows 11, in simple terms, what are the basic steps NOT to do
>in order to NOT have it set up the Windows 11 Microsoft Account on the net?
>
>Also, if I don't set up the Windows 11 MSA for-profit account, what bad
>things happen to me?

This site could help:

<https://www.pcmag.com/how-to/how-to-set-up-microsoft-windows-with-local-account>

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk