Am 28.06.24 um 11:00 schrieb Andy Burns:
> Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>
>> RCS is not adding any value to the communication options.
> For some of us (edge cases perhaps) it will.

No, it won't because all functionalities of RCS are already available.
More secure, faster and more private.

Please explain in detail if you have a different view.

--
"Manus manum lavat."

Am 28.06.24 um 11:00 schrieb Andy Burns:
> Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>
>> RCS is not adding any value to the communication options.
> For some of us (edge cases perhaps) it will.
>
> I use android, as do the majority of my friends/colleagues, but a
> minority use iphone. I refuse to use Messenger/WhatsApp, they've never
> heard of Signal/Telegram.
>
> The only ways I can send them photos is MMS (which is expensive, so I
> only do it rarely) or email, which some of them don't have on their
> phones ... RCS does add value in that case.

RCS cannot solve social issues. Your friends do not need RCS. What they
need is less resistance to learn.

--
"Manus manum lavat."

Jörg Lorenz wrote:

> all functionalities of RCS are already available.
> More secure, faster and more private.

Only if I choose to use WhatsApp/FBmessenger (which I won't), or I
persuade my friends to use Signal/Telegram (which I won't).

> Please explain in detail if you have a different view.

RCS being universally available will be an advantage.

On 28/06/2024 12:36, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
> Am 28.06.24 um 11:00 schrieb Andy Burns:
>> Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>
>>> RCS is not adding any value to the communication options.
>> For some of us (edge cases perhaps) it will.
>>
>> I use android, as do the majority of my friends/colleagues, but a
>> minority use iphone. I refuse to use Messenger/WhatsApp, they've never
>> heard of Signal/Telegram.
>>
>> The only ways I can send them photos is MMS (which is expensive, so I
>> only do it rarely) or email, which some of them don't have on their
>> phones ... RCS does add value in that case.
>
> RCS cannot solve social issues. Your friends do not need RCS. What they
> need is less resistance to learn.
>
>

I dont see anything here which conclusively proves that RCS will be
universally availale in the long term

On 2024-06-27 23:17, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
> Am 27.06.24 um 15:11 schrieb Roger:
>> On Thu, 27 Jun 2024 08:35:36 +0200, Jörg Lorenz
>> <hugybear@gmx.net> wrote:
>>
>>> RCS is is implemented and supported by almost all networks for years.
>>
>> The OP included the newsgroup uk.telecom.mobile. What you have
>> written is incorrect for the UK.
>
> This group is not only about the UK.

Not only, but also. "uk.telecom.mobile" is in the headers.

> And certainly not because a user
> impolitely X-posted to other groups. Main topic is "iOS 18 beta RCS
> integration".
>

It is there since the OP.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 28/06/2024 10:00, Andy Burns wrote:
> Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>
>> RCS is not adding any value to the communication options.
> For some of us (edge cases perhaps) it will.
>
> I use android, as do the majority of my friends/colleagues, but a
> minority use iphone.  I refuse to use Messenger/WhatsApp,

Then you will be left out in the cold. I have Telegram but I would
rather not.

>they've never
> heard of Signal/Telegram.
>

Even if they had you are about as likely to get them to change as the
Pope is to marry his boyfriend.

> The only ways I can send them photos is MMS (which is expensive, so I
> only do it rarely) or email, which some of them don't have on their
> phones ... RCS does add value in that case.

I have never heard of RCS and have no intention of enabling it....

Dave

David Wade wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> I refuse to use Messenger/WhatsApp
>
> Then you will be left out in the cold.

I recognise that's a consequence of my dislike of all things Meta

>> they've never heard of Signal/Telegram.
>
> Even if they had you are about as likely to get them to change as the
> Pope is to marry his boyfriend.

Again, I wouldn't try to persuade them.

> I have never heard of RCS and have no intention of enabling it....

You may find Google have enabled it for you ...

<https://9to5google.com/2023/08/08/google-messages-rcs-default>

I had previously disabled it, so they didn't enable it for me, but I
have enabled it, it shows me when I'm texting another user who also has
it enabled, so it's "discoverable" ...

Am 28.06.24 um 15:26 schrieb Carlos E.R.:
> On 2024-06-27 23:17, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>> Am 27.06.24 um 15:11 schrieb Roger:
>>> On Thu, 27 Jun 2024 08:35:36 +0200, Jörg Lorenz
>>> <hugybear@gmx.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> RCS is is implemented and supported by almost all networks for years.
>>>
>>> The OP included the newsgroup uk.telecom.mobile. What you have
>>> written is incorrect for the UK.
>>
>> This group is not only about the UK.
>
> Not only, but also. "uk.telecom.mobile" is in the headers.
>
>> And certainly not because a user
>> impolitely X-posted to other groups. Main topic is "iOS 18 beta RCS
>> integration".
>>
>
> It is there since the OP.

You are a very smart cookie.

--
"Manus manum lavat."

On 2024-06-28 01:53, Abandoned Trolley wrote:
>
>> My old boss still has a huge Betamax library.  Quality is still very
>> good (for videotape).
>>
>> I have some VHS cassettes left - can't seem to sell or give them
>> away... all personal stuff has been moved to digital.
>>
>
>
> The point I was making was that VHS became the dominant force in the
> marketplace despite being (by some distance) the worst performing
> technology at the time - a bit like audio cassettes.

Sony's terms and conditions for some forms of entertainment begat VHS'
success.

> Also, in a "normal" marketplace, new entrants can disrupt by competing
> on price - I can't see that happening here

Not really relevant to the RCS thing at all.

--
"It would be a measureless disaster if Russian barbarism overlaid
the culture and independence of the ancient States of Europe."
Winston Churchill

On 2024-06-28 04:34, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
> Am 27.06.24 um 21:13 schrieb Alan Browne:
>> On 2024-06-25 18:30, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>> Am 25.06.24 um 22:35 schrieb Alan Browne:
>>>> On 2024-06-25 10:56, Gelato wrote:
>>>>> Once Apple supports RCS & after the carriers support their iOS RCS
>>>>> bundles,
>>>>> what problems will be solved when RCS is finally working on both
>>>>> platforms?
>>>>
>>>> Hopefully the problem of transparently sending large files from(to) iOS
>>>> to(from) Android with little effort or loss.  Hopefully avoiding the
>>>> "phone" paradigm along the way.  And of course the whole encryption
>>>> issue also needs to be worked out so that it is not Google oriented.
>>>
>>> Only the real amateurs and houswifes do it that way.
>>> *ROTFSTC*
>>
>> You're an ass as usual. I move files according to what is needed for
>> security (95% of the time: none) and then convenience.
>
> A server- or a cloud-link is much faster, more convenient, more secure,
> more versatile and in the case of confident material much much more
> private. Google with its platform is never trustworthy. Under no
> circumstances.

You're the one bringing Google into it w/o realizing Apple want nothing
to do with Google's encryption. This has been pointed out to you
several times but you duck it because it does not fit your distorted
(and very wrong) world view.

> *You are an amateur*

I am so far beyond you, you can't see me.

--
"It would be a measureless disaster if Russian barbarism overlaid
the culture and independence of the ancient States of Europe."
Winston Churchill

On 2024-06-28 05:00, Andy Burns wrote:
> Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>
>> RCS is not adding any value to the communication options.
> For some of us (edge cases perhaps) it will.
>
> I use android, as do the majority of my friends/colleagues, but a
> minority use iphone.  I refuse to use Messenger/WhatsApp, they've never
> heard of Signal/Telegram.

I've never had a problem getting someone to adopt(adapt to) Signal.

--
"It would be a measureless disaster if Russian barbarism overlaid
the culture and independence of the ancient States of Europe."
Winston Churchill

On 2024-06-28 08:51, Abandoned Trolley wrote:
> On 28/06/2024 12:36, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>> Am 28.06.24 um 11:00 schrieb Andy Burns:
>>> Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>>
>>>> RCS is not adding any value to the communication options.
>>> For some of us (edge cases perhaps) it will.
>>>
>>> I use android, as do the majority of my friends/colleagues, but a
>>> minority use iphone.  I refuse to use Messenger/WhatsApp, they've never
>>> heard of Signal/Telegram.
>>>
>>> The only ways I can send them photos is MMS (which is expensive, so I
>>> only do it rarely) or email, which some of them don't have on their
>>> phones ... RCS does add value in that case.
>>
>> RCS cannot solve social issues. Your friends do not need RCS. What they
>> need is less resistance to learn.
>>
>>
>
>
> I dont see anything here which conclusively proves that RCS will be
> universally availale in the long term

That's the "remains to be seen" part. IAC, I stand by interested in the
outcome. But one part is clear: Apple will not implement Google's
encryption scheme - it must be open source.

--
"It would be a measureless disaster if Russian barbarism overlaid
the culture and independence of the ancient States of Europe."
Winston Churchill

On 2024-06-28 09:26, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2024-06-27 23:17, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>> Am 27.06.24 um 15:11 schrieb Roger:
>>> On Thu, 27 Jun 2024 08:35:36 +0200, Jörg Lorenz
>>> <hugybear@gmx.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> RCS is is implemented and supported by almost all networks for years.
>>>
>>> The OP included the newsgroup uk.telecom.mobile. What you have
>>> written is incorrect for the UK.
>>
>> This group is not only about the UK.
>
> Not only, but also. "uk.telecom.mobile" is in the headers.

Bad Carlos! You're interfering with Jörg's notion that everything shall
be solely and exclusively interpreted from his perspective.

--
"It would be a measureless disaster if Russian barbarism overlaid
the culture and independence of the ancient States of Europe."
Winston Churchill

Alan Browne wrote:

> Abandoned Trolley wrote:
>
>> I dont see anything here which conclusively proves that RCS will be
>> universally availale in the long term
>
> That's the "remains to be seen" part.  IAC, I stand by interested in the
> outcome.  But one part is clear: Apple will not implement Google's
> encryption scheme - it must be open source.

What google have done over the last year has improved take-up, hopefully
what apple will do in the next few months improves it further, actually
encryption isn't a major point for me ...

Andy Burns wrote on Fri, 28 Jun 2024 12:38:11 +0100 :

>> all functionalities of RCS are already available.
>> More secure, faster and more private.
>
> Only if I choose to use WhatsApp/FBmessenger (which I won't), or I
> persuade my friends to use Signal/Telegram (which I won't).

I think the iPhone users are so used to constantly logging into Apple's
metadata-tracking servers that they don't even realize that their iPhones
are essentially dumb terminals in concept - in that they love the walled
garden but they don't realize the only reason things work inside the walled
garden so well is that they're all logging into the same Apple servers.

Android users are not used to logging into servers just to do messaging.

Note: This isn't to say that Android users don't habitually log into Google
servers, as they certainly do; but the difference is Android works just
fine without any Google Account set up on the phone (ask me how I know).

Note: I own plenty of iOS devices and I know full well that the iPhone and
iPad are designed by Apple to be dumb terminals in terms of everything they
love about the walled garden fails to work if they don't log into it daily.

>> Please explain in detail if you have a different view.
>
> RCS being universally available will be an advantage.

While I'm on record for not caring about RCS with Android...

RCS should help in platform compatibility and RCS should help four ways:
1. Those who pay for MMS will get to use RCS for free, instead.
2. Large video/audio will be platform compatible
3. Group chats won't be mangled on iPhones
4. RCS adds something about read receipts I'm not familiar with

I'm not sure about encryption though, Andy.
What's the situation with RCS encryption currently between iOS & Android?

On 2024-06-28 13:43, Andy Burns wrote:
> Alan Browne wrote:
>
>> Abandoned Trolley wrote:
>>
>>> I dont see anything here which conclusively proves that RCS will be
>>> universally availale in the long term
>>
>> That's the "remains to be seen" part.  IAC, I stand by interested in
>> the outcome.  But one part is clear: Apple will not implement Google's
>> encryption scheme - it must be open source.
>
> What google have done over the last year has improved take-up, hopefully
> what apple will do in the next few months improves it further, actually
> encryption isn't a major point for me ...

It's not all the time that I need it, but for some files it's needed.

--
"It would be a measureless disaster if Russian barbarism overlaid
the culture and independence of the ancient States of Europe."
Winston Churchill

Andrew wrote:

> While I'm on record for not caring about RCS with Android...

It's not the be all, end all for me either.

> RCS should help in platform compatibility and RCS should help four ways:
> 1. Those who pay for MMS will get to use RCS for free, instead.
> 2. Large video/audio will be platform compatible
> 3. Group chats won't be mangled on iPhones
> 4. RCS adds something about read receipts I'm not familiar with

depending on settings, you can tell if a message is delivered and/or
read, also there's a setting so you can see if the other person is
currently typing.

> I'm not sure about encryption though, Andy.
> What's the situation with RCS encryption currently between iOS & Android?

It's end-to-end for android-to-android is all I know, from the sounds of
it android-to-iphone encryption isn't very likely.

None of my iphone contacts will be running developer firmware, so
conversations with them they haven't "lit up" as RCS chats yet.

Andy Burns wrote on Fri, 28 Jun 2024 20:22:11 +0100 :

>> While I'm on record for not caring about RCS with Android...
>
> It's not the be all, end all for me either.

That's good to know since RCS is clearly not the nirvana we'd hope to have
where Android and iPhone users could just communicate perfectly together.

When Apple emails were deposed in the Epic case, Apple was forced to admit
in court that the last thing they want is to work seamlessly with Android,

That's really the underlying reason why cross-platform compatibility sucks.

Luckily, Android users have everything that messages brings to iPhone users
if they use PulseSMS as their default messaging app, although I agree that
this requires Android users to create an account on PulseSMS servers (much
like Apple users already create an account on Apple messaging servers).

Yes, I know all about PulseSMS open-source code being bought by Maple
Media, so I use the last known good version (which is still open source).
Pulse SMS 5.4.6.2816 by Luke & Jake Klinker

And yes, I'm aware the Maple Media PulseSMS has advertisements (again, I
don't have them because I use the last known good version of PulseSMS).
<https://home.pulsesms.app/overview/>

My point is simply that EVERYTHING that the iPhone user love about
messaging is only possible because they're logging into an Internet server
for most of what they love about messaging - which is 110% reproduceable on
Android (meaning Android is even better) if we log into similar servers.

When I say "even better", you can send and receive text from your iPad,
your iPhone, your Android, your mac, your Windows PC and your Linux desktop
(which you can't do with the Apple messaging, even with logging into Apple
servers being taken into account - simply because Apple has never cared
about cross-platform compatibility - which everyone else already enjoys).

As an aside, here are some screenshots of PulseSMS in use, but all you need
to know is PulseSMS does everything iMessages does and quite a lot more;
but you have to log into a server (just like Apple users do every day).
<https://i.postimg.cc/Qd21dwVw/pulsesms01.jpg> PulseSMS beats iMessages
<https://i.postimg.cc/3RdsFtgX/pulsesms02.jpg> FOSS sold to MapleMedia
<https://i.postimg.cc/1tjcm7KJ/pulsesms03.jpg> 5.4.6.2816 lastknowngoodv
<https://i.postimg.cc/nL8052Vj/pulsesms04.jpg> Very nice MMS settings
<https://i.postimg.cc/ZR4jYqdJ/pulsesms05.jpg> Lastknowngoodv works fine
<https://i.postimg.cc/bvWQHZLx/pulsesms06.jpg> Stores MMS in sdcard0
<https://i.postimg.cc/rpQ1dhRP/pulsesms07.jpg> Stores data in /data
<https://i.postimg.cc/QtDM3sML/pulsesms08.jpg> Data is protected (nonroot)
>> RCS should help in platform compatibility and RCS should help four ways:
>> 1. Those who pay for MMS will get to use RCS for free, instead.
>> 2. Large video/audio will be platform compatible
>> 3. Group chats won't be mangled on iPhones
>> 4. RCS adds something about read receipts I'm not familiar with
>
> depending on settings, you can tell if a message is delivered and/or
> read, also there's a setting so you can see if the other person is
> currently typing.

Oh. Thank you for showing me that. I've seen it on other media, for
example, that it shows if someone is typing and whether they've read the
message. Much appreciated you explained that for me. Thank you.

Note: It's not an important feature for me, but I can see how kids would
like it as they message fast and furiously - much more so than I would.

>> I'm not sure about encryption though, Andy.
>> What's the situation with RCS encryption currently between iOS & Android?
>
> It's end-to-end for android-to-android is all I know, from the sounds of
> it android-to-iphone encryption isn't very likely.

Thank you for confirming what I had thought, which Alan Browne also alluded
to, which is that the encryption of RCS hasn't been agreed upon between, it
seems, the two major parties: Google & Apple.

It seems that Google has an implementation but Apple won't agree to it,
where Alan Browne believes that's because Apple wants it to be a
non-Google-based standard but I suspect that it's just a ruse by Apple
since I'm well aware that Apple clearly said in the deposed internal emails
that the last thing they'd ever want to do is be cross-platform compatible
with Android (as Messaging is their secret sauce).

Note; Messaging is only their secret sauce because the Apple user is too
ignorant to realize they can get EVERYTHING they get with iMessages (and
more) simply by logging into any Internet server - which is where all the
secret handshakes are happening.

They could do that with PulseSMS as well as they could do it with Messages.
<https://home.pulsesms.app/overview/>

For example, iOS only recently got "scheduled messages", which has been in
Android for as long as I can remember - so that's how far behind iOS is.
<https://i.postimg.cc/v86wXwtJ/scheduledmessage.jpg> scheduled messages

The "secret sauce" is logging into an Internet server, which is why I have
appropriately termed the iPhone a "dumb terminal" in that almost nothing in
the walled garden works the instant they log out of that Internet server.

> None of my iphone contacts will be running developer firmware, so
> conversations with them they haven't "lit up" as RCS chats yet.

Thanks for explaining that none of your iPhone contacts are using the beta;
I'm in the same boat as half my family is on the iPhone, and in particular,
I have a brand new great grandchild whose entire immediate family is an
Apple family.

Hence, only recently I felt, firsthand, the debilitating inability of those
iPhone users to send me clear videos of the grandchild to the point that I
had to ask them to make a family WhatsApp group chat for that purpose.

Since Messaging failed them, they were forced to use a DIFFERENT Internet
server, which is my point that the Apple Internet server only makes things
easy for Apple users - even as it could make it work for everyone.

But the last thing Apple wants is compatibility with Android users. Sigh.

In summary, thanks for explaining that RCS has read-receipts/typing
indicators, and that the encryption probably won't work for a while.

Again, I'm not a fan of RCS (mostly because not a lot of messaging apps
support it yet that are outside the realm of Google's control), but I'm
slowly understanding that a lot of other people need some of RCS' features.

Thanks!