How would I map with precision about 900 planted trees on
google-earth-pro? As a manual method I would think of taking a hundred
readings on each with my phone and averaging them out, but that is a LOT
of work (did it once with a bubble-sextant to win a bet). Is there an
fdroid app to do this sort of thing (not interested in signupware)? Any
other ideas?

On 06/23/2024 9:39 AM, bad sector wrote:
>
> How would I map with precision about 900 planted trees on
> google-earth-pro? As a manual method I would think of taking a hundred
> readings on each with my phone and averaging them out, but that is a LOT
> of work (did it once with a bubble-sextant to win a bet). Is there an
> fdroid app to do this sort of thing (not interested in signupware)? Any
> other ideas?
>
I don't know about the android version, but on the PC version you can
add pins to identify a specific location.

On the PC version of Google Earth Pro, you can determine the longitude
and latitude to six decimal places or get good numbers for location
about 300 feet apart. This 300 feet was calculated by zooming Google
Earth to its maximum and reading the coordinates of each location.

bad sector wrote:

> How would I map with precision about 900 planted trees on
> google-earth-pro? As a manual method I would think of taking a hundred
> readings on each with my phone and averaging them out, but that is a LOT
> of work (did it once with a bubble-sextant to win a bet). Is there an
> fdroid app to do this sort of thing (not interested in signupware)? Any
> other ideas?

Surveying like that probably requires either differential GPS or
real-time kinematics GPS.

On 6/23/24 10:18, knuttle wrote:
> On 06/23/2024 9:39 AM, bad sector wrote:
>>
>> How would I map with precision about 900 planted trees on
>> google-earth-pro? As a manual method I would think of taking a hundred
>> readings on each with my phone and averaging them out, but that is a
>> LOT of work (did it once with a bubble-sextant to win a bet). Is there
>> an fdroid app to do this sort of thing (not interested in signupware)?
>> Any other ideas?
>>
> I don't know about the  android version, but on the PC version you can
> add pins to identify a specific location.
>
> On the PC version of Google Earth Pro, you can determine the longitude
> and latitude to six decimal places or get good numbers for location
> about 300 feet apart.  This 300 feet was calculated by zooming Google
> Earth to its maximum and reading the coordinates of each location.

About 1/3 of the trees are now just big enough to show on GE but the
rest are not visible yet. It is to place THESE that I need the
lat-longs. And I'm looking for about one foot of precision :-) which is
not easy with the imagery resolution provided out here in the sticks. If
I were living in the densely populated areas a six inch seedling would
show but all I get is about a 1.5-2.0 foot circle to show.

During a drinking marathon I once bet with the owner of a hotel I was
staying at that I could measure the width of his hotel with a
bubble-sextant to within a foot. So I took like a hundred readings on
two corners, plotted them and marked the center of each 'blob'. Won the
$200 bet which today would be like $2000. If I were a codepuncher I'd
try to write an app that plots for maybe 30 minutes and then coughs up
the centerpoint of the same sort of blob as the position.

I'll be planting another hundred or so in the next three months so I'd
like to refine my mapping. 220 of the trees are yellow-cedars not native
here and many fans are watching to see how they will survive. I want to
map them on GE and update the pictures from time to time.

On 6/23/24 10:41, Andy Burns wrote:
> bad sector wrote:
>
>> How would I map with precision about 900 planted trees on
>> google-earth-pro? As a manual method I would think of taking a hundred
>> readings on each with my phone and averaging them out, but that is a
>> LOT of work (did it once with a bubble-sextant to win a bet). Is there
>> an fdroid app to do this sort of thing (not interested in signupware)?
>> Any other ideas?
>
> Surveying like that probably requires either differential GPS or
> real-time kinematics GPS.

Imaging from a drone would cost less but I don't even wanna spend that
much, the tree shoots cost around $10ea by the time I plant them and
that's where the money is going.

bad sector <forgetski@_INVALID.net> wrote:

> On 6/23/24 10:18, knuttle wrote:
>> On 06/23/2024 9:39 AM, bad sector wrote:
>>>
>>> How would I map with precision about 900 planted trees on
>>> google-earth-pro? As a manual method I would think of taking a hundred
>>> readings on each with my phone and averaging them out, but that is a
>>> LOT of work (did it once with a bubble-sextant to win a bet). Is there
>>> an fdroid app to do this sort of thing (not interested in signupware)?
>>> Any other ideas?
>>>
>> I don't know about the  android version, but on the PC version you can
>> add pins to identify a specific location.
>>
>> On the PC version of Google Earth Pro, you can determine the longitude
>> and latitude to six decimal places or get good numbers for location
>> about 300 feet apart.  This 300 feet was calculated by zooming Google
>> Earth to its maximum and reading the coordinates of each location.
>
> About 1/3 of the trees are now just big enough to show on GE but the
> rest are not visible yet. It is to place THESE that I need the
> lat-longs. And I'm looking for about one foot of precision :-) which is
> not easy with the imagery resolution provided out here in the sticks. If
> I were living in the densely populated areas a six inch seedling would
> show but all I get is about a 1.5-2.0 foot circle to show.
>
> During a drinking marathon I once bet with the owner of a hotel I was
> staying at that I could measure the width of his hotel with a
> bubble-sextant to within a foot. So I took like a hundred readings on
> two corners, plotted them and marked the center of each 'blob'. Won the
> $200 bet which today would be like $2000. If I were a codepuncher I'd
> try to write an app that plots for maybe 30 minutes and then coughs up
> the centerpoint of the same sort of blob as the position.
>
> I'll be planting another hundred or so in the next three months so I'd
> like to refine my mapping. 220 of the trees are yellow-cedars not native
> here and many fans are watching to see how they will survive. I want to
> map them on GE and update the pictures from time to time.

I would think GPS would work to record the locations of the trees.
While different GPS receivers have varying levels of accuracy, even your
phone's GPS radio should suffice. After all, the trees have to be
planted far enough apart to account for their canopies.

https://crec.ifas.ufl.edu/media/crecifasufledu/extension/plant-pathology-/greening/pdf/GPSAccuracyforTreeScouting.pdf
https://fruitgrowersnews.com/article/precise-gps-systems-increase-planting-efficiency/

Since you are at site when planting the trees, use GPS to record where
you planted. Then use the GPS coordinates, or convert to long-lat, to
position in a map.

GPS radios in smart phones are accurate to within 3 to 5 meters (1o to
16 feet). Don't know far apart you are planting the seedling to account
for their canopy sizes later in life. If a smart phone's GPS isn't
accurate enough, you can buy GPS receivers that are more accurate.

I figure if a hand-held GPS navigator is good for recording trails that
it is probably sufficient to record tree locations.

bad sector <forgetski@_INVALID.net> wrote:
>
> How would I map with precision about 900 planted trees on
> google-earth-pro? As a manual method I would think of taking a hundred
> readings on each with my phone and averaging them out, but that is a LOT
> of work (did it once with a bubble-sextant to win a bet). Is there an
> fdroid app to do this sort of thing (not interested in signupware)? Any
> other ideas?

What three words?
https://what3words.com/

Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:

> bad sector <forgetski@_INVALID.net> wrote:
>>
>> How would I map with precision about 900 planted trees on
>> google-earth-pro? As a manual method I would think of taking a hundred
>> readings on each with my phone and averaging them out, but that is a LOT
>> of work (did it once with a bubble-sextant to win a bet). Is there an
>> fdroid app to do this sort of thing (not interested in signupware)? Any
>> other ideas?
>
> What three words?
> https://what3words.com/

Trees have postal addresses?

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:

Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android
Subject: Re: precision coordinates
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2024 19:18:25 -0500
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Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:

> bad sector wrote:
>
>> How would I map with precision about 900 planted trees on
>> google-earth-pro? As a manual method I would think of taking a hundred
>> readings on each with my phone and averaging them out, but that is a LOT
>> of work (did it once with a bubble-sextant to win a bet). Is there an
>> fdroid app to do this sort of thing (not interested in signupware)? Any
>> other ideas?
>
> Surveying like that probably requires either differential GPS or
> real-time kinematics GPS.

DGPS stations don't provide 100% coverage of the USA. See:

https://gssc.esa.int/navipedia/index.php/Differential_GPS

The light blue is single station coverage. Dark blue is overlapping
coverage. There are still some uncovered areas. Coverage also requires
line-of-site, so if you're in a tree dense valley you might not be able
to get the DPGS signal. DPGS stations are land based.

GPS III satellites eliminate the need for DPGS. They are 3 times more
accurate. Instead of an average accuracy of 5 to 10 meters, they have a
range of 1 to 3 meters. I don't know if smart phone makers can access
the GPS III satellites, though. Might be accessible only by gov't or
military agencies, so you'd have to resort to the land-based DGPS
stations if reachable.

https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/products/gps.html

As for the OP's request to add coordinates to [online] maps, well, how
old are the maps? A pic of an area could be 3 years old, so what others
would see with the given coordinates could be before the trees were
planted, or when they were still seedlings and not visible on the map.
I've seen aerial maps that were lacking the buildings that I knew were
there. With Google Earth, you can zoom in to see the capture date in
the status bar, or use the "Historical Imagery" feature to see the date
stamp.

The GE pic of my house is dated 5/23/2023, or just over a year ago.
Still shows the massive oak in the backyard that was cut down a month
ago, and the zoomed-in image looks like a blocky cartoon. No way it'll
show seedlings or saplings. Insufficient detail. I can see the
handicap ramp at the front of the house, but no one else would know what
that elongated blob represented.

> bad sector wrote:
I haven't played with Google Maps/Earth to know if you can request
access to higher detailed satellite images to see something like
saplings, or make out the brand and model of car on the street. It's
not like what you see in the movies where a spy satellite focuses down
>
to a pack of cigarettes.
>> How would I map with precision about 900 planted trees on
. >> google-earth-pro? As a manual method I would think of taking a hundred
>> readings on each with my phone and averaging them out, but that is a LOT
>> of work (did it once with a bubble-sextant to win a bet). Is there an
>> fdroid app to do this sort of thing (not interested in signupware)? Any
>> other ideas?
>
> Surveying like that probably requires either differential GPS or
> real-time kinematics GPS.

DGPS stations don't provide 100% coverage of the USA. See:

https://gssc.esa.int/navipedia/index.php/Differential_GPS

The light blue is single station coverage. Dark blue is overlapping
coverage. There are still some uncovered areas. Coverage also requires
line-of-site, so if you're in a tree dense valley you might not be able
to get the DPGS signal. DPGS stations are land based.

GPS III satellites eliminate the need for DPGS. They are 3 times more
accurate. Instead of an average accuracy of 5 to 10 meters, they have a
range of 1 to 3 meters. I don't know if smart phone makers can access
the GPS III satellites, though. Might be accessible only by gov't or
military agencies, so you'd have to resort to the land-based DGPS

VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:
> Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> bad sector <forgetski@_INVALID.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> How would I map with precision about 900 planted trees on
>>> google-earth-pro? As a manual method I would think of taking a hundred
>>> readings on each with my phone and averaging them out, but that is a LOT
>>> of work (did it once with a bubble-sextant to win a bet). Is there an
>>> fdroid app to do this sort of thing (not interested in signupware)? Any
>>> other ideas?
>>
>> What three words?
>> https://what3words.com/
>
> Trees have postal addresses?

It's not a postal address. It's a global grid of unique, human
interpretable, coordinates.

It has its issues, but as long as the trees are about 3m or more apart it
could work well for the OP's needs.

Chris wrote:

> VanguardLH wrote:
>
>> Chris wrote:
>>
>>> https://what3words.com/
>>
>> Trees have postal addresses?
>
> It's not a postal address. It's a global grid of unique, human
> interpretable, coordinates.
>
> It has its issues, but as long as the trees are about 3m or more apart it
> could work well for the OP's needs.

.... if the O/P already knew the GPS co-ordinates of each tree.

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> Chris wrote:
>
>> VanguardLH wrote:
>>
>>> Chris wrote:
>>>
>>>> https://what3words.com/
>>>
>>> Trees have postal addresses?
>>
>> It's not a postal address. It's a global grid of unique, human
>> interpretable, coordinates.
>>
>> It has its issues, but as long as the trees are about 3m or more apart it
>> could work well for the OP's needs.
>
> ... if the O/P already knew the GPS co-ordinates of each tree.

Why?

The OP mentioned taking lots of pictures so will be on-site. Will be time
consuming, but will be accurate.

On 6/23/24 16:34, VanguardLH wrote:
> bad sector <forgetski@_INVALID.net> wrote:
>
>> On 6/23/24 10:18, knuttle wrote:
>>> On 06/23/2024 9:39 AM, bad sector wrote:
>>>>
>>>> How would I map with precision about 900 planted trees on
>>>> google-earth-pro? As a manual method I would think of taking a hundred
>>>> readings on each with my phone and averaging them out, but that is a
>>>> LOT of work (did it once with a bubble-sextant to win a bet). Is there
>>>> an fdroid app to do this sort of thing (not interested in signupware)?
>>>> Any other ideas?
>>>>
>>> I don't know about the  android version, but on the PC version you can
>>> add pins to identify a specific location.
>>>
>>> On the PC version of Google Earth Pro, you can determine the longitude
>>> and latitude to six decimal places or get good numbers for location
>>> about 300 feet apart.  This 300 feet was calculated by zooming Google
>>> Earth to its maximum and reading the coordinates of each location.
>>
>> About 1/3 of the trees are now just big enough to show on GE but the
>> rest are not visible yet. It is to place THESE that I need the
>> lat-longs. And I'm looking for about one foot of precision :-) which is
>> not easy with the imagery resolution provided out here in the sticks. If
>> I were living in the densely populated areas a six inch seedling would
>> show but all I get is about a 1.5-2.0 foot circle to show.
>>
>> During a drinking marathon I once bet with the owner of a hotel I was
>> staying at that I could measure the width of his hotel with a
>> bubble-sextant to within a foot. So I took like a hundred readings on
>> two corners, plotted them and marked the center of each 'blob'. Won the
>> $200 bet which today would be like $2000. If I were a codepuncher I'd
>> try to write an app that plots for maybe 30 minutes and then coughs up
>> the centerpoint of the same sort of blob as the position.
>>
>> I'll be planting another hundred or so in the next three months so I'd
>> like to refine my mapping. 220 of the trees are yellow-cedars not native
>> here and many fans are watching to see how they will survive. I want to
>> map them on GE and update the pictures from time to time.
>
> I would think GPS would work to record the locations of the trees.
> While different GPS receivers have varying levels of accuracy, even your
> phone's GPS radio should suffice. After all, the trees have to be
> planted far enough apart to account for their canopies.
>
> https://crec.ifas.ufl.edu/media/crecifasufledu/extension/plant-pathology-/greening/pdf/GPSAccuracyforTreeScouting.pdf
> https://fruitgrowersnews.com/article/precise-gps-systems-increase-planting-efficiency/
>
> Since you are at site when planting the trees, use GPS to record where
> you planted. Then use the GPS coordinates, or convert to long-lat, to
> position in a map.
>
> GPS radios in smart phones are accurate to within 3 to 5 meters (1o to
> 16 feet). Don't know far apart you are planting the seedling to account
> for their canopy sizes later in life. If a smart phone's GPS isn't
> accurate enough, you can buy GPS receivers that are more accurate.
>
> I figure if a hand-held GPS navigator is good for recording trails that
> it is probably sufficient to record tree locations.

thanks for the time to respond

I once bought a garmin gps camera attachment for my slr camera but it
too was wishy washy; never even tried composing blobs with it. With 900
trees (and growing) the only 'involvement' I have time for is putting
the smart-phone down and leaving it there to collect its wanderings over
maybe fifteen minutes or less. The trees are at different distances but
what I want is 1-foot accuracy not so much because it's indispensible
but because I'm a sucker for at least a semblance of reality.
Google-Earth placemarks is one tool I use giving the trees icons
representing the tree species. Ideally I'd like to attach an actual
photo of the tree to appear in a popup on click or something along those
lines and all of it uploaded instead of locally stored.

Not sure if math averaging would give the same result as hitting the
center of plotted coordinates but with the processing utility in a phone
an APP could ideally produce the ultimately VERY accurate result ...just
like I once did with a bubble sextant meant to produce plots in terms of
miles at the center of triangles of probabilty. That stunt took half an
hour per reading and I did maybe fifty on each of two corners, I forget
the actual number, it was a royal pissing contest :-)

--
"Only in pursuit of impossible perfection can we achieve excellence"
...many sources, I heard something like this from Greg Wooldridge, the
only 3-times lead pilot of the Blue Angels.

On 6/24/24 02:53, Chris wrote:
> VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:
>> Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> bad sector <forgetski@_INVALID.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> How would I map with precision about 900 planted trees on
>>>> google-earth-pro? As a manual method I would think of taking a hundred
>>>> readings on each with my phone and averaging them out, but that is a LOT
>>>> of work (did it once with a bubble-sextant to win a bet). Is there an
>>>> fdroid app to do this sort of thing (not interested in signupware)? Any
>>>> other ideas?
>>>
>>> What three words?
>>> https://what3words.com/
>>
>> Trees have postal addresses?
>
> It's not a postal address. It's a global grid of unique, human
> interpretable, coordinates.
>
> It has its issues, but as long as the trees are about 3m or more apart it
> could work well for the OP's needs.

Thanks for the ref. but GE also gives me the additional base imagery as
the underlay

On 6/23/24 16:34, VanguardLH wrote:

> https://crec.ifas.ufl.edu/media/crecifasufledu/extension/plant-pathology-/greening/pdf/GPSAccuracyforTreeScouting.pdf
> https://fruitgrowersnews.com/article/precise-gps-systems-increase-planting-efficiency/

Forgot to include: I'm only too aware of very accurate and even more
than very expensive gps toys, my surveyor uses them and has to charge
$1000 per marker to pay for them :-)))

My efforts are DIY and on a zero extra-cost basis, any savings got to
buy shoots (plugs).

-------
In 10,000 years we have consumed 3/4 of the trees since coming out of
the last ice age, going from some 30 trillion huge trees to 15 trillion
toothpicks good only to cut 2x4's! This gives some sense of the dioxide
absorbing greenery and capacity-destruction but if we look for the
actual amount of wood and branches then we find 4 and 6 inch trunks
where 4 FOOTERS once were! I suspect that in terms of board-feet or
foliage we have destroyed over 80%. No need to look at Brazil for
examples of the devastation, see here

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47679859072_c59d2aef84_z.jpg

https://mashable-evaporation-wordpress.s3.amazonaws.com/2015/12/lumber-10.jpg

http://www.ancientforest.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/I00279241-451x600.jpg

http://www.ameriquefrancaise.org/en/article-574/Saving_the_American_White_Pine.html

for an idea of what north american forests were like before our race of
locusts robbed it from the care of first-nations. Harvesting on public
(crown i.e. people's) land should require a % of very large trunk sizes
harvested, thus effectively limiting the cut when those have been
over-rarified. In addition every human being should be charged with the
planting of 1 tree per month throughout his or her life (say 1000 trees
per person), such being the TRUE SCOPE of what we have allowed
bean-counters and money-changers to do to our spaceship home.

bad sector <forgetski@_INVALID.net> wrote:

> On 6/23/24 16:34, VanguardLH wrote:
>> bad sector <forgetski@_INVALID.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 6/23/24 10:18, knuttle wrote:
>>>> On 06/23/2024 9:39 AM, bad sector wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> How would I map with precision about 900 planted trees on
>>>>> google-earth-pro? As a manual method I would think of taking a hundred
>>>>> readings on each with my phone and averaging them out, but that is a
>>>>> LOT of work (did it once with a bubble-sextant to win a bet). Is there
>>>>> an fdroid app to do this sort of thing (not interested in signupware)?
>>>>> Any other ideas?
>>>>>
>>>> I don't know about the  android version, but on the PC version you can
>>>> add pins to identify a specific location.
>>>>
>>>> On the PC version of Google Earth Pro, you can determine the longitude
>>>> and latitude to six decimal places or get good numbers for location
>>>> about 300 feet apart.  This 300 feet was calculated by zooming Google
>>>> Earth to its maximum and reading the coordinates of each location.
>>>
>>> About 1/3 of the trees are now just big enough to show on GE but the
>>> rest are not visible yet. It is to place THESE that I need the
>>> lat-longs. And I'm looking for about one foot of precision :-) which is
>>> not easy with the imagery resolution provided out here in the sticks. If
>>> I were living in the densely populated areas a six inch seedling would
>>> show but all I get is about a 1.5-2.0 foot circle to show.
>>>
>>> During a drinking marathon I once bet with the owner of a hotel I was
>>> staying at that I could measure the width of his hotel with a
>>> bubble-sextant to within a foot. So I took like a hundred readings on
>>> two corners, plotted them and marked the center of each 'blob'. Won the
>>> $200 bet which today would be like $2000. If I were a codepuncher I'd
>>> try to write an app that plots for maybe 30 minutes and then coughs up
>>> the centerpoint of the same sort of blob as the position.
>>>
>>> I'll be planting another hundred or so in the next three months so I'd
>>> like to refine my mapping. 220 of the trees are yellow-cedars not native
>>> here and many fans are watching to see how they will survive. I want to
>>> map them on GE and update the pictures from time to time.
>>
>> I would think GPS would work to record the locations of the trees.
>> While different GPS receivers have varying levels of accuracy, even your
>> phone's GPS radio should suffice. After all, the trees have to be
>> planted far enough apart to account for their canopies.
>>
>> https://crec.ifas.ufl.edu/media/crecifasufledu/extension/plant-pathology-/greening/pdf/GPSAccuracyforTreeScouting.pdf
>> https://fruitgrowersnews.com/article/precise-gps-systems-increase-planting-efficiency/
>>
>> Since you are at site when planting the trees, use GPS to record where
>> you planted. Then use the GPS coordinates, or convert to long-lat, to
>> position in a map.
>>
>> GPS radios in smart phones are accurate to within 3 to 5 meters (1o to
>> 16 feet). Don't know far apart you are planting the seedling to account
>> for their canopy sizes later in life. If a smart phone's GPS isn't
>> accurate enough, you can buy GPS receivers that are more accurate.
>>
>> I figure if a hand-held GPS navigator is good for recording trails that
>> it is probably sufficient to record tree locations.
>
> thanks for the time to respond
>
> I once bought a garmin gps camera attachment for my slr camera but it
> too was wishy washy; never even tried composing blobs with it. With 900
> trees (and growing) the only 'involvement' I have time for is putting
> the smart-phone down and leaving it there to collect its wanderings over
> maybe fifteen minutes or less. The trees are at different distances but
> what I want is 1-foot accuracy not so much because it's indispensible
> but because I'm a sucker for at least a semblance of reality.
> Google-Earth placemarks is one tool I use giving the trees icons
> representing the tree species. Ideally I'd like to attach an actual
> photo of the tree to appear in a popup on click or something along those
> lines and all of it uploaded instead of locally stored.
>
> Not sure if math averaging would give the same result as hitting the
> center of plotted coordinates but with the processing utility in a phone
> an APP could ideally produce the ultimately VERY accurate result ...just
> like I once did with a bubble sextant meant to produce plots in terms of
> miles at the center of triangles of probabilty. That stunt took half an
> hour per reading and I did maybe fifty on each of two corners, I forget
> the actual number, it was a royal pissing contest :-)

I think averaging would only work well if you managed to get the GPS
device connected to different GPS satellites within reach. Then repeat
by using another different set of 3 GPS satellites. I would think
reusing the same 3 GPS satellites to get multiple readings from them
would result in the same offset (inaccuracy) in each reading. However,
maybe walking around in a circle around the focus point to take multiple
readings might work to average the multiple readings from the same set
of 3 satellites.

Someone here mentioned DGPS (differential GPS) which uses ground-based
positioning stations. Those have a 200-mile range if there are no
blocks to the signal (mountains, trees, buildings). Never got around to
using those, so no experience with them. Don't remember seeing a smart
phone stating it can use DGPS, so you'll likely have to find a GPS
receiver that can find DGPS stations.

VanguardLH wrote:

> Don't remember seeing a smart
> phone stating it can use DGPS, so you'll likely have to find a GPS
> receiver that can find DGPS stations.

Build your own RTK GPS
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oc1LBFDj2MA>

(yes, I know the O/P wants to spend on trees, not tech toys).

bad sector <forgetski@_INVALID.net> wrote:
> On 6/24/24 02:53, Chris wrote:
>> VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:
>>> Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> bad sector <forgetski@_INVALID.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> How would I map with precision about 900 planted trees on
>>>>> google-earth-pro? As a manual method I would think of taking a hundred
>>>>> readings on each with my phone and averaging them out, but that is a LOT
>>>>> of work (did it once with a bubble-sextant to win a bet). Is there an
>>>>> fdroid app to do this sort of thing (not interested in signupware)? Any
>>>>> other ideas?
>>>>
>>>> What three words?
>>>> https://what3words.com/
>>>
>>> Trees have postal addresses?
>>
>> It's not a postal address. It's a global grid of unique, human
>> interpretable, coordinates.
>>
>> It has its issues, but as long as the trees are about 3m or more apart it
>> could work well for the OP's needs.
>
>
> Thanks for the ref. but GE also gives me the additional base imagery as
> the underlay

So does the app.

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:

> VanguardLH wrote:
>
>> Don't remember seeing a smart
>> phone stating it can use DGPS, so you'll likely have to find a GPS
>> receiver that can find DGPS stations.
>
> Build your own RTK GPS
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oc1LBFDj2MA>
>
> (yes, I know the O/P wants to spend on trees, not tech toys).

The video author mention RTK (Real-Time Kinematic) positioning which
sounds very much like DGPS (Differential GPS) where land-based stations
knowing their exact position relay that to the roving GPS receiver to
add to the positioning it gets from the satellites.

The author said the range of the RTK land station is 20 km (12 miles).
I thought it was 200 miles for DPGS, but then that couldn't get around
the Earth's curvature.

On 6/24/24 13:27, VanguardLH wrote:
> bad sector <forgetski@_INVALID.net> wrote:
>
>> On 6/23/24 16:34, VanguardLH wrote:
>>> bad sector <forgetski@_INVALID.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 6/23/24 10:18, knuttle wrote:
>>>>> On 06/23/2024 9:39 AM, bad sector wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How would I map with precision about 900 planted trees on
>>>>>> google-earth-pro? As a manual method I would think of taking a hundred
>>>>>> readings on each with my phone and averaging them out, but that is a
>>>>>> LOT of work (did it once with a bubble-sextant to win a bet). Is there
>>>>>> an fdroid app to do this sort of thing (not interested in signupware)?
>>>>>> Any other ideas?
>>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know about the  android version, but on the PC version you can
>>>>> add pins to identify a specific location.
>>>>>
>>>>> On the PC version of Google Earth Pro, you can determine the longitude
>>>>> and latitude to six decimal places or get good numbers for location
>>>>> about 300 feet apart.  This 300 feet was calculated by zooming Google
>>>>> Earth to its maximum and reading the coordinates of each location.
>>>>
>>>> About 1/3 of the trees are now just big enough to show on GE but the
>>>> rest are not visible yet. It is to place THESE that I need the
>>>> lat-longs. And I'm looking for about one foot of precision :-) which is
>>>> not easy with the imagery resolution provided out here in the sticks. If
>>>> I were living in the densely populated areas a six inch seedling would
>>>> show but all I get is about a 1.5-2.0 foot circle to show.
>>>>
>>>> During a drinking marathon I once bet with the owner of a hotel I was
>>>> staying at that I could measure the width of his hotel with a
>>>> bubble-sextant to within a foot. So I took like a hundred readings on
>>>> two corners, plotted them and marked the center of each 'blob'. Won the
>>>> $200 bet which today would be like $2000. If I were a codepuncher I'd
>>>> try to write an app that plots for maybe 30 minutes and then coughs up
>>>> the centerpoint of the same sort of blob as the position.
>>>>
>>>> I'll be planting another hundred or so in the next three months so I'd
>>>> like to refine my mapping. 220 of the trees are yellow-cedars not native
>>>> here and many fans are watching to see how they will survive. I want to
>>>> map them on GE and update the pictures from time to time.
>>>
>>> I would think GPS would work to record the locations of the trees.
>>> While different GPS receivers have varying levels of accuracy, even your
>>> phone's GPS radio should suffice. After all, the trees have to be
>>> planted far enough apart to account for their canopies.
>>>
>>> https://crec.ifas.ufl.edu/media/crecifasufledu/extension/plant-pathology-/greening/pdf/GPSAccuracyforTreeScouting.pdf
>>> https://fruitgrowersnews.com/article/precise-gps-systems-increase-planting-efficiency/
>>>
>>> Since you are at site when planting the trees, use GPS to record where
>>> you planted. Then use the GPS coordinates, or convert to long-lat, to
>>> position in a map.
>>>
>>> GPS radios in smart phones are accurate to within 3 to 5 meters (1o to
>>> 16 feet). Don't know far apart you are planting the seedling to account
>>> for their canopy sizes later in life. If a smart phone's GPS isn't
>>> accurate enough, you can buy GPS receivers that are more accurate.
>>>
>>> I figure if a hand-held GPS navigator is good for recording trails that
>>> it is probably sufficient to record tree locations.
>>
>> thanks for the time to respond
>>
>> I once bought a garmin gps camera attachment for my slr camera but it
>> too was wishy washy; never even tried composing blobs with it. With 900
>> trees (and growing) the only 'involvement' I have time for is putting
>> the smart-phone down and leaving it there to collect its wanderings over
>> maybe fifteen minutes or less. The trees are at different distances but
>> what I want is 1-foot accuracy not so much because it's indispensible
>> but because I'm a sucker for at least a semblance of reality.
>> Google-Earth placemarks is one tool I use giving the trees icons
>> representing the tree species. Ideally I'd like to attach an actual
>> photo of the tree to appear in a popup on click or something along those
>> lines and all of it uploaded instead of locally stored.
>>
>> Not sure if math averaging would give the same result as hitting the
>> center of plotted coordinates but with the processing utility in a phone
>> an APP could ideally produce the ultimately VERY accurate result ...just
>> like I once did with a bubble sextant meant to produce plots in terms of
>> miles at the center of triangles of probabilty. That stunt took half an
>> hour per reading and I did maybe fifty on each of two corners, I forget
>> the actual number, it was a royal pissing contest :-)
>
> I think averaging would only work well if you managed to get the GPS
> device connected to different GPS satellites within reach. Then repeat
> by using another different set of 3 GPS satellites. I would think
> reusing the same 3 GPS satellites to get multiple readings from them
> would result in the same offset (inaccuracy) in each reading. However,
> maybe walking around in a circle around the focus point to take multiple
> readings might work to average the multiple readings from the same set
> of 3 satellites.
>
> Someone here mentioned DGPS (differential GPS) which uses ground-based
> positioning stations. Those have a 200-mile range if there are no
> blocks to the signal (mountains, trees, buildings). Never got around to
> using those, so no experience with them. Don't remember seeing a smart
> phone stating it can use DGPS, so you'll likely have to find a GPS
> receiver that can find DGPS stations.

I launch the F-Droid app *GPSTest* which tunes in a long list of satellites.

https://f-droid.org/en/packages/com.android.gpstest.osmdroid/

I have no idea how it arrives at the annunciated Lat-Long but it's
changing continuously and what I have in mind is an automated way of
virtually plotting these positions over a few minutes and picking the
plot-centerpoint as THE position. I haven't tried any of the math yet to
get a feel for those 7 decimal readouts and what they mean in terms of
feet but I figure that there must be some added precision to squeeze out
of THEM as opposed to just any ONE of them.

On 6/25/24 19:59, bad💽sector wrote:
> On 6/24/24 13:27, VanguardLH wrote:
>> bad sector <forgetski@_INVALID.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 6/23/24 16:34, VanguardLH wrote:
>>>> bad sector <forgetski@_INVALID.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 6/23/24 10:18, knuttle wrote:
>>>>>> On 06/23/2024 9:39 AM, bad sector wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How would I map with precision about 900 planted trees on
>>>>>>> google-earth-pro? As a manual method I would think of taking a
>>>>>>> hundred
>>>>>>> readings on each with my phone and averaging them out, but that is a
>>>>>>> LOT of work (did it once with a bubble-sextant to win a bet). Is
>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>> an fdroid app to do this sort of thing (not interested in
>>>>>>> signupware)?
>>>>>>> Any other ideas?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know about the  android version, but on the PC version you
>>>>>> can
>>>>>> add pins to identify a specific location.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On the PC version of Google Earth Pro, you can determine the
>>>>>> longitude
>>>>>> and latitude to six decimal places or get good numbers for location
>>>>>> about 300 feet apart.  This 300 feet was calculated by zooming Google
>>>>>> Earth to its maximum and reading the coordinates of each location.
>>>>>
>>>>> About 1/3 of the trees are now just big enough to show on GE but the
>>>>> rest are not visible yet. It is to place THESE that I need the
>>>>> lat-longs. And I'm looking for about one foot of precision :-)
>>>>> which is
>>>>> not easy with the imagery resolution provided out here in the
>>>>> sticks. If
>>>>> I were living in the densely populated areas a six inch seedling would
>>>>> show but all I get is about a 1.5-2.0 foot circle to show.
>>>>>
>>>>> During a drinking marathon I once bet with the owner of a hotel I was
>>>>> staying at that I could measure the width of his hotel with a
>>>>> bubble-sextant to within a foot. So I took like a hundred readings on
>>>>> two corners, plotted them and marked the center of each 'blob'. Won
>>>>> the
>>>>> $200 bet which today would be like $2000. If I were a codepuncher I'd
>>>>> try to write an app that plots for maybe 30 minutes and then coughs up
>>>>> the centerpoint of the same sort of blob as the position.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'll be planting another hundred or so in the next three months so I'd
>>>>> like to refine my mapping. 220 of the trees are yellow-cedars not
>>>>> native
>>>>> here and many fans are watching to see how they will survive. I
>>>>> want to
>>>>> map them on GE and update the pictures from time to time.
>>>>
>>>> I would think GPS would work to record the locations of the trees.
>>>> While different GPS receivers have varying levels of accuracy, even
>>>> your
>>>> phone's GPS radio should suffice.  After all, the trees have to be
>>>> planted far enough apart to account for their canopies.
>>>>
>>>> https://crec.ifas.ufl.edu/media/crecifasufledu/extension/plant-pathology-/greening/pdf/GPSAccuracyforTreeScouting.pdf
>>>> https://fruitgrowersnews.com/article/precise-gps-systems-increase-planting-efficiency/
>>>>
>>>> Since you are at site when planting the trees, use GPS to record where
>>>> you planted.  Then use the GPS coordinates, or convert to long-lat, to
>>>> position in a map.
>>>>
>>>> GPS radios in smart phones are accurate to within 3 to 5 meters (1o to
>>>> 16 feet).  Don't know far apart you are planting the seedling to
>>>> account
>>>> for their canopy sizes later in life.  If a smart phone's GPS isn't
>>>> accurate enough, you can buy GPS receivers that are more accurate.
>>>>
>>>> I figure if a hand-held GPS navigator is good for recording trails that
>>>> it is probably sufficient to record tree locations.
>>>
>>> thanks for the time to respond
>>>
>>> I once bought a garmin gps camera attachment for my slr camera but it
>>> too was wishy washy; never even tried composing blobs with it. With 900
>>> trees (and growing) the only 'involvement' I have time for is putting
>>> the smart-phone down and leaving it there to collect its wanderings over
>>> maybe fifteen minutes or less. The trees are at different distances but
>>> what I want is 1-foot accuracy not so much because it's indispensible
>>> but because I'm a sucker for at least a semblance of reality.
>>> Google-Earth placemarks is one tool I use giving the trees icons
>>> representing the tree species. Ideally I'd like to attach an actual
>>> photo of the tree to appear in a popup on click or something along those
>>> lines and all of it uploaded instead of locally stored.
>>>
>>> Not sure if math averaging would give the same result as hitting the
>>> center of plotted coordinates but with the processing utility in a phone
>>> an APP could ideally produce the ultimately VERY accurate result ...just
>>> like I once did with a bubble sextant meant to produce plots in terms of
>>> miles at the center of triangles of probabilty. That stunt took half an
>>> hour per reading and I did maybe fifty on each of two corners, I forget
>>> the actual number, it was a royal pissing contest :-)
>>
>> I think averaging would only work well if you managed to get the GPS
>> device connected to different GPS satellites within reach.  Then repeat
>> by using another different set of 3 GPS satellites.  I would think
>> reusing the same 3 GPS satellites to get multiple readings from them
>> would result in the same offset (inaccuracy) in each reading.  However,
>> maybe walking around in a circle around the focus point to take multiple
>> readings might work to average the multiple readings from the same set
>> of 3 satellites.
>>
>> Someone here mentioned DGPS (differential GPS) which uses ground-based
>> positioning stations.  Those have a 200-mile range if there are no
>> blocks to the signal (mountains, trees, buildings).  Never got around to
>> using those, so no experience with them.  Don't remember seeing a smart
>> phone stating it can use DGPS, so you'll likely have to find a GPS
>> receiver that can find DGPS stations.
>
> I launch the F-Droid app *GPSTest* which tunes in a long list of
> satellites.
>
> https://f-droid.org/en/packages/com.android.gpstest.osmdroid/
>
>
> I have no idea how it arrives at the annunciated Lat-Long but it's
> changing continuously and what I have in mind is an automated way of
> virtually plotting these positions over a few minutes and picking the
> plot-centerpoint as THE position. I haven't tried any of the math yet to
> get a feel for those 7 decimal readouts and what they mean in terms of
> feet but I figure that there must be some added precision to squeeze out
> of THEM as opposed to just any ONE of them.
>

Not to confuse precision with accuracy, the 6th decimal Lat is good for
10cm precision and the 7th for 1cm (both the the 6th and 7th are
wondering up to 3 units so that 3 on the 6th counter is a variation of
30cm or about a good foot). *Accuracy* could come from averaging out the
time-lapse plot maybe. The good news is that I'm no GPS guru and as far
as smart-phones go I haven't even come up for air yet.

And out of courtesy to those trying to help out here's a screenshot of
what I'm trying to do (in this case using GE 'placemarks').

https://imgur.com/7VQlUul.png

bad sector wrote:

> I launch the F-Droid app GPSTest which tunes in a long list of satellites.

I tried the GPSaverage app, it's very basic, plots a position on a
circular grid every second, you might expect a perfect Gaussian cloud
where the centre was the average, but it gives linear streaks which are
probably due to the flyover paths of the satellites?

On 6/26/24 01:41, Andy Burns wrote:
> bad sector wrote:
>
>> I launch the F-Droid app GPSTest which tunes in a long list of
>> satellites.
>
> I tried the GPSaverage app, it's very basic, plots a position on a
> circular grid every second, you might expect a perfect Gaussian cloud
> where the centre was the average, but it gives linear streaks which are
> probably due to the flyover paths of the satellites?

That looks like exactly what I had in mind, thanks. Would be nice if the
method could be incorporated as an optional 'surveying' feature into all
gps readings, especially fdroids which I try to stick to.

On 6/26/24 01:41, Andy Burns wrote:
> bad sector wrote:
>
>> I launch the F-Droid app GPSTest which tunes in a long list of
>> satellites.
>
> I tried the GPSaverage app, it's very basic, plots a position on a
> circular grid every second, you might expect a perfect Gaussian cloud
> where the centre was the average, but it gives linear streaks which are
> probably due to the flyover paths of the satellites?

I'll get my wife to install GPSaverage on her iPhone, meanwhile I did
some tests manually at two known surveyor pins by putting the phone down
for 3-4 minutes at each and noted starting/ending readings (which showed
steady unidirectional drifting). The two readings drifted south at both
pins by 1.0-1.5 meters but all readings remained 3-4 meters in error
overall throughout. I've noticed that surveyors leave some equipment out
overnight or waiting for specific time windows. Maybe a much longer
exposure interval is required.

bad sector wrote:

> I'll get my wife to install GPSaverage on her iPhone

I used it on Android, is it available on Apple too?

> meanwhile I did
> some tests manually at two known surveyor pins by putting the phone down
> for 3-4 minutes at each and noted starting/ending readings (which showed
> steady unidirectional drifting).

Actually yes, I've got a few survey nails around my plot which I could
test out.