On Thu, 25 Apr 2024 09:47:17 +0100, Jeff Layman wrote:

>> [*] or any other action such as lifting it up, or touching the screen,
>> or poking the fingerprint reader.
>
> The lifting it up thing is interesting. I wonder if that's done with an
> accelerometer? If so, it would be checking that too.

A few more comments, but I don't know much about this topic.

1. Even if a phone is "off", when you plug in a charger, "something
happens", so is it really off? I don't know, but how does it charge?

2. The government has, in the past, secretly modified gangster's phones
such that they looked to be off, but were secretly still transmitting.

3. The iPhone, I believe, is never off, which, I'm told, is how the FindMy
sensing works for stolen phones.

How does any of that work? I don't know.

On 4/25/24 05:29, Nick Cine wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Apr 2024 09:47:17 +0100, Jeff Layman wrote:
>
>>> [*] or any other action such as lifting it up, or touching the screen,
>>> or poking the fingerprint reader.
>>
>> The lifting it up thing is interesting. I wonder if that's done with an
>> accelerometer? If so, it would be checking that too.
>
> A few more comments, but I don't know much about this topic.
>
> 1. Even if a phone is "off", when you plug in a charger, "something
> happens", so is it really off? I don't know, but how does it charge?
>
> 2. The government has, in the past, secretly modified gangster's phones
> such that they looked to be off, but were secretly still transmitting.
>
> 3. The iPhone, I believe, is never off, which, I'm told, is how the FindMy
> sensing works for stolen phones.
>
> How does any of that work? I don't know.

For one thing the battery should be removable with one hand,
blindfolded, in 3 seconds or less.

On 25/04/2024 10:29, Nick Cine wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Apr 2024 09:47:17 +0100, Jeff Layman wrote:
>
>>> [*] or any other action such as lifting it up, or touching the screen,
>>> or poking the fingerprint reader.
>>
>> The lifting it up thing is interesting. I wonder if that's done with an
>> accelerometer? If so, it would be checking that too.
>
> A few more comments, but I don't know much about this topic.
>
> 1. Even if a phone is "off", when you plug in a charger, "something
> happens", so is it really off? I don't know, but how does it charge?

The charging circuitry is within the battery itself. It controls the
rate of charge and, in particular, monitors the temperature of the
cell(s). If it gets too high it will stop the charging. Note though,
that the connection from the phone's charger socket (lightning, USB, or
whatever) goes through some of the phone's circuitry, so the phone knows
the state of charge of its battery. That way its % charge can be
displayed on the phone's screen, and battery-usage apps can let you know
what's being used and how long the phone might last before recharging is
essential.

> 2. The government has, in the past, secretly modified gangster's phones
> such that they looked to be off, but were secretly still transmitting.

What makes you think that was in the past and only affected crim's
phones?! ;-)

> 3. The iPhone, I believe, is never off, which, I'm told, is how the FindMy
> sensing works for stolen phones.

I don't know about iPhones, but with my Xiaomi Android phone I can
supposedly switch off "Find my phone". However, I'm not in control of
the OS and really have little idea of what it does in the background.
And even if you do work it all out, the next time an OS update appears
you could be back at square one again!

You can only be sure that a phone is truly off by removing its battery,
and that is becoming less likely every time a new model comes out. If
you power down "completely" by, for example, giving a long press on the
power switch, then you still have to accept the Manufacturer's word that
the phone is "off" as there's no way of testing it AFAIAA.

> How does any of that work? I don't know.

--
Jeff

On 2024-04-25 11:29, Nick Cine wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Apr 2024 09:47:17 +0100, Jeff Layman wrote:
>
>>> [*] or any other action such as lifting it up, or touching the screen,
>>> or poking the fingerprint reader.
>>
>> The lifting it up thing is interesting. I wonder if that's done with an
>> accelerometer? If so, it would be checking that too.
>
> A few more comments, but I don't know much about this topic.
>
> 1. Even if a phone is "off", when you plug in a charger, "something
> happens", so is it really off? I don't know, but how does it charge?

But the operating system is not running, radios are off. This can be
known because when you press the power button it takes some time before
the phone responds. It is booting.

What exact circuitry is on when the charger is connected is up to
speculation.

> 2. The government has, in the past, secretly modified gangster's phones
> such that they looked to be off, but were secretly still transmitting.

Hum. Dubitable.

For one thing, the battery is spent soon if it is transmitting. A
question of hours.

>
> 3. The iPhone, I believe, is never off, which, I'm told, is how the FindMy
> sensing works for stolen phones.
>
> How does any of that work? I don't know.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
[...]

> The charging circuitry is within the battery itself. It controls the
> rate of charge and, in particular, monitors the temperature of the
> cell(s). If it gets too high it will stop the charging. Note though,
> that the connection from the phone's charger socket (lightning, USB, or
> whatever) goes through some of the phone's circuitry, so the phone knows
> the state of charge of its battery. That way its % charge can be
> displayed on the phone's screen, and battery-usage apps can let you know
> what's being used and how long the phone might last before recharging is
> essential.

The fact that the phone is charging and how full its battery is, is
also displayed/displayable when the phone is switched 'off'.

Ergo, the phone is never really off. It's either awake or sleeping
during normal use or in cold standby when the user switched it 'off'.

[...]

In comp.mobile.android, on Thu, 25 Apr 2024 07:00:53 -0400, bad?sector
<forgetski@_INVALID.net> wrote:

>On 4/25/24 05:29, Nick Cine wrote:
>> On Thu, 25 Apr 2024 09:47:17 +0100, Jeff Layman wrote:
>>
>>>> [*] or any other action such as lifting it up, or touching the screen,
>>>> or poking the fingerprint reader.
>>>
>>> The lifting it up thing is interesting. I wonder if that's done with an
>>> accelerometer? If so, it would be checking that too.
>>
>> A few more comments, but I don't know much about this topic.
>>
>> 1. Even if a phone is "off", when you plug in a charger, "something
>> happens", so is it really off? I don't know, but how does it charge?
>>
>> 2. The government has, in the past, secretly modified gangster's phones
>> such that they looked to be off, but were secretly still transmitting.
>>
>> 3. The iPhone, I believe, is never off, which, I'm told, is how the FindMy
>> sensing works for stolen phones.
>>
>> How does any of that work? I don't know.
>
>For one thing the battery should be removable with one hand,
>blindfolded, in 3 seconds or less.

Wyatt Earp could do that but I can't.

In comp.mobile.android, on Thu, 25 Apr 2024 15:13:40 +0200, "Carlos
E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

>On 2024-04-25 11:29, Nick Cine wrote:
>> On Thu, 25 Apr 2024 09:47:17 +0100, Jeff Layman wrote:
>>
>>>> [*] or any other action such as lifting it up, or touching the screen,
>>>> or poking the fingerprint reader.
>>>
>>> The lifting it up thing is interesting. I wonder if that's done with an
>>> accelerometer? If so, it would be checking that too.
>>
>> A few more comments, but I don't know much about this topic.
>>
>> 1. Even if a phone is "off", when you plug in a charger, "something
>> happens", so is it really off? I don't know, but how does it charge?
>
>But the operating system is not running, radios are off. This can be
>known because when you press the power button it takes some time before
>the phone responds. It is booting.

Doesn't whether it boots or not depend on what made the screen black?

Did the OP ever say how his screen got into the situation it's in?

If the screen times out, the radios were still be running, I presume the
OS is running, the phone will ring if someone calls. HOw is that "off"?
>What exact circuitry is on when the charger is connected is up to
>speculation.
>
>
>> 2. The government has, in the past, secretly modified gangster's phones
>> such that they looked to be off, but were secretly still transmitting.
>
>Hum. Dubitable.
>
>For one thing, the battery is spent soon if it is transmitting. A
>question of hours.

Right. Unless the phone is truly Off.
>
>
>>
>> 3. The iPhone, I believe, is never off, which, I'm told, is how the FindMy
>> sensing works for stolen phones.
>>
>> How does any of that work? I don't know.

Am 25.04.24 um 11:29 schrieb Nick Cine:
> On Thu, 25 Apr 2024 09:47:17 +0100, Jeff Layman wrote:
>
>>> [*] or any other action such as lifting it up, or touching the screen,
>>> or poking the fingerprint reader.
>>
>> The lifting it up thing is interesting. I wonder if that's done with an
>> accelerometer? If so, it would be checking that too.
>
> A few more comments, but I don't know much about this topic.

Then you better shut up.

> 1. Even if a phone is "off", when you plug in a charger, "something
> happens", so is it really off? I don't know, but how does it charge?

Do you still live in the 80s of the last century? Charging electronics
is seperate from the OS.

> 2. The government has, in the past, secretly modified gangster's phones
> such that they looked to be off, but were secretly still transmitting.

They call her SIRI and her boy friend is Google.

> 3. The iPhone, I believe, is never off, which, I'm told, is how the FindMy
> sensing works for stolen phones.

Simple mind. Why are you writing here? Are you bored?

> How does any of that work? I don't know.

Obviously.

--
"Gutta cavat lapidem." (Ovid)

On 25.04.24 15:55, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> [...]
>
>> The charging circuitry is within the battery itself. It controls the
>> rate of charge and, in particular, monitors the temperature of the
>> cell(s). If it gets too high it will stop the charging. Note though,
>> that the connection from the phone's charger socket (lightning, USB, or
>> whatever) goes through some of the phone's circuitry, so the phone knows
>> the state of charge of its battery. That way its % charge can be
>> displayed on the phone's screen, and battery-usage apps can let you know
>> what's being used and how long the phone might last before recharging is
>> essential.
>
> The fact that the phone is charging and how full its battery is, is
> also displayed/displayable when the phone is switched 'off'.
>
> Ergo, the phone is never really off. It's either awake or sleeping
> during normal use or in cold standby when the user switched it 'off'.

Bullshit!
The OS is not booted when the Android is turned off.

--
"Alea icacta est." (Julius Caesar)

On 4/25/24 21:28, micky wrote:
> In comp.mobile.android, on Thu, 25 Apr 2024 07:00:53 -0400, bad?sector
> <forgetski@_INVALID.net> wrote:
>
>> On 4/25/24 05:29, Nick Cine wrote:
>>> On Thu, 25 Apr 2024 09:47:17 +0100, Jeff Layman wrote:
>>>
>>>>> [*] or any other action such as lifting it up, or touching the screen,
>>>>> or poking the fingerprint reader.
>>>>
>>>> The lifting it up thing is interesting. I wonder if that's done with an
>>>> accelerometer? If so, it would be checking that too.
>>>
>>> A few more comments, but I don't know much about this topic.
>>>
>>> 1. Even if a phone is "off", when you plug in a charger, "something
>>> happens", so is it really off? I don't know, but how does it charge?
>>>
>>> 2. The government has, in the past, secretly modified gangster's phones
>>> such that they looked to be off, but were secretly still transmitting.
>>>
>>> 3. The iPhone, I believe, is never off, which, I'm told, is how the FindMy
>>> sensing works for stolen phones.
>>>
>>> How does any of that work? I don't know.
>>
>> For one thing the battery should be removable with one hand,
>> blindfolded, in 3 seconds or less.
>
> Wyatt Earp could do that but I can't.

Regulations require it for oxygen masks, if enough people demand it the
same lawmakers can just as easily require it for cell phones as well.

Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> wrote:
> On 25.04.24 15:55, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> > Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> > [...]
> >
> >> The charging circuitry is within the battery itself. It controls the
> >> rate of charge and, in particular, monitors the temperature of the
> >> cell(s). If it gets too high it will stop the charging. Note though,
> >> that the connection from the phone's charger socket (lightning, USB, or
> >> whatever) goes through some of the phone's circuitry, so the phone knows
> >> the state of charge of its battery. That way its % charge can be
> >> displayed on the phone's screen, and battery-usage apps can let you know
> >> what's being used and how long the phone might last before recharging is
> >> essential.
> >
> > The fact that the phone is charging and how full its battery is, is
> > also displayed/displayable when the phone is switched 'off'.
> >
> > Ergo, the phone is never really off. It's either awake or sleeping
> > during normal use or in cold standby when the user switched it 'off'.
>
> Bullshit!
> The OS is not booted when the Android is turned off.

AIUI it is, kind of. When you plug in the charger with the phone off, the
phone starts. The bootloader then launches the Android kernel with the flag
androidboot.mode=charger

Instead of doing the full Android boot, that causes the kernel to launch a
charger UI application that shows your battery percentage on the screen or
an animation (which comes from files on your OS partition). The charger app
doesn't allow you to otherwise interact with the phone and other services
like the radios aren't running, but the SoC is booted and running software.
The SoC is also doing standard power management, ie the charging process
here likely looks very similar to charging when the phone is turned on
(because it is, in essence).

The full OS services are not running, but the Android kernel and the charger
app is.

Theo
(usual caveats: my understanding may be out of date, different vendors may
do their own thing, etc)

On 27.04.24 11:16, Theo wrote:
> Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> wrote:
>> Bullshit!
>> The OS is not booted when the Android is turned off.
>
> AIUI it is, kind of.

Even not a kind of.

--
"Alea iacta est." (Julius Caesar)

On 2024-04-27 11:16, Theo wrote:
> Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> wrote:
>> On 25.04.24 15:55, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>>> Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>> The charging circuitry is within the battery itself. It controls the
>>>> rate of charge and, in particular, monitors the temperature of the
>>>> cell(s). If it gets too high it will stop the charging. Note though,
>>>> that the connection from the phone's charger socket (lightning, USB, or
>>>> whatever) goes through some of the phone's circuitry, so the phone knows
>>>> the state of charge of its battery. That way its % charge can be
>>>> displayed on the phone's screen, and battery-usage apps can let you know
>>>> what's being used and how long the phone might last before recharging is
>>>> essential.
>>>
>>> The fact that the phone is charging and how full its battery is, is
>>> also displayed/displayable when the phone is switched 'off'.
>>>
>>> Ergo, the phone is never really off. It's either awake or sleeping
>>> during normal use or in cold standby when the user switched it 'off'.
>>
>> Bullshit!
>> The OS is not booted when the Android is turned off.
>
> AIUI it is, kind of. When you plug in the charger with the phone off, the
> phone starts. The bootloader then launches the Android kernel with the flag
> androidboot.mode=charger
>
> Instead of doing the full Android boot, that causes the kernel to launch a
> charger UI application that shows your battery percentage on the screen or
> an animation (which comes from files on your OS partition). The charger app
> doesn't allow you to otherwise interact with the phone and other services
> like the radios aren't running, but the SoC is booted and running software.
> The SoC is also doing standard power management, ie the charging process
> here likely looks very similar to charging when the phone is turned on
> (because it is, in essence).
>
> The full OS services are not running, but the Android kernel and the charger
> app is.
>
> Theo
> (usual caveats: my understanding may be out of date, different vendors may
> do their own thing, etc)

Hum! That's the best explanation I have seen so far. Thank you. It
explains things.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 2024-04-26 22:53, bad sector wrote:
> On 4/25/24 21:28, micky wrote:
>> In comp.mobile.android, on Thu, 25 Apr 2024 07:00:53 -0400, bad?sector
>> <forgetski@_INVALID.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/25/24 05:29, Nick Cine wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 25 Apr 2024 09:47:17 +0100, Jeff Layman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> [*] or any other action such as lifting it up, or touching the
>>>>>> screen,
>>>>>> or poking the fingerprint reader.
>>>>>
>>>>> The lifting it up thing is interesting. I wonder if that's done
>>>>> with an
>>>>> accelerometer? If so, it would be checking that too.
>>>>
>>>> A few more comments, but I don't know much about this topic.
>>>>
>>>> 1. Even if a phone is "off", when you plug in a charger, "something
>>>>      happens", so is it really off? I don't know, but how does it
>>>> charge?
>>>>
>>>> 2. The government has, in the past, secretly modified gangster's phones
>>>>      such that they looked to be off, but were secretly still
>>>> transmitting.
>>>>
>>>> 3. The iPhone, I believe, is never off, which, I'm told, is how the
>>>> FindMy
>>>>      sensing works for stolen phones.
>>>>
>>>> How does any of that work? I don't know.
>>>
>>> For one thing the battery should be removable with one hand,
>>> blindfolded, in 3 seconds or less.
>>
>> Wyatt Earp could do that but I can't.
>
> Regulations require it for oxygen masks, if enough people demand it the
> same lawmakers can just as easily require it for cell phones as well.

The EU is planning to regulate user replaceable batteries in phones and
other devices. No mention of doing it "with one hand, blindfolded, in 3
seconds or less", though.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 02.05.24 08:14, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2024-04-26 22:53, bad sector wrote:
>> On 4/25/24 21:28, micky wrote:
>>> In comp.mobile.android, on Thu, 25 Apr 2024 07:00:53 -0400, bad?sector
>>> <forgetski@_INVALID.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 4/25/24 05:29, Nick Cine wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 25 Apr 2024 09:47:17 +0100, Jeff Layman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> [*] or any other action such as lifting it up, or touching the
>>>>>>> screen,
>>>>>>> or poking the fingerprint reader.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The lifting it up thing is interesting. I wonder if that's done
>>>>>> with an
>>>>>> accelerometer? If so, it would be checking that too.
>>>>>
>>>>> A few more comments, but I don't know much about this topic.
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Even if a phone is "off", when you plug in a charger, "something
>>>>>      happens", so is it really off? I don't know, but how does it
>>>>> charge?
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. The government has, in the past, secretly modified gangster's phones
>>>>>      such that they looked to be off, but were secretly still
>>>>> transmitting.
>>>>>
>>>>> 3. The iPhone, I believe, is never off, which, I'm told, is how the
>>>>> FindMy
>>>>>      sensing works for stolen phones.
>>>>>
>>>>> How does any of that work? I don't know.
>>>>
>>>> For one thing the battery should be removable with one hand,
>>>> blindfolded, in 3 seconds or less.
>>>
>>> Wyatt Earp could do that but I can't.
>>
>> Regulations require it for oxygen masks, if enough people demand it the
>> same lawmakers can just as easily require it for cell phones as well.
>
> The EU is planning to regulate user replaceable batteries in phones and
> other devices. No mention of doing it "with one hand, blindfolded, in 3
> seconds or less", though.

Readjust your irony sensors, Carlos.

--
"Alea iacta est." (Julius Caesar)

On 5/2/24 02:14, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2024-04-26 22:53, bad sector wrote:
>> On 4/25/24 21:28, micky wrote:
>>> In comp.mobile.android, on Thu, 25 Apr 2024 07:00:53 -0400, bad?sector
>>> <forgetski@_INVALID.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 4/25/24 05:29, Nick Cine wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 25 Apr 2024 09:47:17 +0100, Jeff Layman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> [*] or any other action such as lifting it up, or touching the
>>>>>>> screen,
>>>>>>> or poking the fingerprint reader.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The lifting it up thing is interesting. I wonder if that's done
>>>>>> with an
>>>>>> accelerometer? If so, it would be checking that too.
>>>>>
>>>>> A few more comments, but I don't know much about this topic.
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Even if a phone is "off", when you plug in a charger, "something
>>>>>      happens", so is it really off? I don't know, but how does it
>>>>> charge?
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. The government has, in the past, secretly modified gangster's
>>>>> phones
>>>>>      such that they looked to be off, but were secretly still
>>>>> transmitting.
>>>>>
>>>>> 3. The iPhone, I believe, is never off, which, I'm told, is how the
>>>>> FindMy
>>>>>      sensing works for stolen phones.
>>>>>
>>>>> How does any of that work? I don't know.
>>>>
>>>> For one thing the battery should be removable with one hand,
>>>> blindfolded, in 3 seconds or less.
>>>
>>> Wyatt Earp could do that but I can't.
>>
>> Regulations require it for oxygen masks, if enough people demand it
>> the same lawmakers can just as easily require it for cell phones as well.
>
> The EU is planning to regulate user replaceable batteries in phones and
> other devices. No mention of doing it "with one hand, blindfolded, in 3
> seconds or less", though.

I don't think they know what it means :-)

Seriously, they're way ahead of us in handling foxes in chicken-coops! I
say if a camera can have an easily ejectable battery then so can a
phone. period.

On 5/2/24 02:17, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2024-04-27 11:16, Theo wrote:
>> Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> wrote:
>>> On 25.04.24 15:55, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>>>> Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>>> The charging circuitry is within the battery itself. It controls the
>>>>> rate of charge and, in particular, monitors the temperature of the
>>>>> cell(s). If it gets too high it will stop the charging. Note though,
>>>>> that the connection from the phone's charger socket (lightning,
>>>>> USB, or
>>>>> whatever) goes through some of the phone's circuitry, so the phone
>>>>> knows
>>>>> the state of charge of its battery. That way its % charge can be
>>>>> displayed on the phone's screen, and battery-usage apps can let you
>>>>> know
>>>>> what's being used and how long the phone might last before
>>>>> recharging is
>>>>> essential.
>>>>
>>>>    The fact that the phone is charging and how full its battery is, is
>>>> also displayed/displayable when the phone is switched 'off'.
>>>>
>>>>    Ergo, the phone is never really off. It's either awake or sleeping
>>>> during normal use or in cold standby when the user switched it 'off'.
>>>
>>> Bullshit!
>>> The OS is not booted when the Android is turned off.
>>
>> AIUI it is, kind of.  When you plug in the charger with the phone off,
>> the
>> phone starts.  The bootloader then launches the Android kernel with
>> the flag
>> androidboot.mode=charger
>>
>> Instead of doing the full Android boot, that causes the kernel to
>> launch a
>> charger UI application that shows your battery percentage on the
>> screen or
>> an animation (which comes from files on your OS partition).  The
>> charger app
>> doesn't allow you to otherwise interact with the phone and other services
>> like the radios aren't running, but the SoC is booted and running
>> software.
>> The SoC is also doing standard power management, ie the charging process
>> here likely looks very similar to charging when the phone is turned on
>> (because it is, in essence).
>>
>> The full OS services are not running, but the Android kernel and the
>> charger
>> app is.
>>
>> Theo
>> (usual caveats: my understanding may be out of date, different vendors
>> may
>> do their own thing, etc)
>
>
> Hum!  That's the best explanation I have seen so far. Thank you. It
> explains things.

Like your compuer, it's sleeping with one ear (and maybe eye) open.

On 02.05.24 13:43, bad💽sector wrote:
> On 5/2/24 02:17, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2024-04-27 11:16, Theo wrote:
>>> Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> wrote:
>>>> On 25.04.24 15:55, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>>>>> Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> [...]
>>>>>
>>>>>> The charging circuitry is within the battery itself. It controls the
>>>>>> rate of charge and, in particular, monitors the temperature of the
>>>>>> cell(s). If it gets too high it will stop the charging. Note though,
>>>>>> that the connection from the phone's charger socket (lightning,
>>>>>> USB, or
>>>>>> whatever) goes through some of the phone's circuitry, so the phone
>>>>>> knows
>>>>>> the state of charge of its battery. That way its % charge can be
>>>>>> displayed on the phone's screen, and battery-usage apps can let you
>>>>>> know
>>>>>> what's being used and how long the phone might last before
>>>>>> recharging is
>>>>>> essential.
>>>>>
>>>>>    The fact that the phone is charging and how full its battery is, is
>>>>> also displayed/displayable when the phone is switched 'off'.
>>>>>
>>>>>    Ergo, the phone is never really off. It's either awake or sleeping
>>>>> during normal use or in cold standby when the user switched it 'off'.
>>>>
>>>> Bullshit!
>>>> The OS is not booted when the Android is turned off.
>>>
>>> AIUI it is, kind of.  When you plug in the charger with the phone off,
>>> the
>>> phone starts.  The bootloader then launches the Android kernel with
>>> the flag
>>> androidboot.mode=charger
>>>
>>> Instead of doing the full Android boot, that causes the kernel to
>>> launch a
>>> charger UI application that shows your battery percentage on the
>>> screen or
>>> an animation (which comes from files on your OS partition).  The
>>> charger app
>>> doesn't allow you to otherwise interact with the phone and other services
>>> like the radios aren't running, but the SoC is booted and running
>>> software.
>>> The SoC is also doing standard power management, ie the charging process
>>> here likely looks very similar to charging when the phone is turned on
>>> (because it is, in essence).
>>>
>>> The full OS services are not running, but the Android kernel and the
>>> charger
>>> app is.
>>>
>>> Theo
>>> (usual caveats: my understanding may be out of date, different vendors
>>> may
>>> do their own thing, etc)
>>
>>
>> Hum!  That's the best explanation I have seen so far. Thank you. It
>> explains things.
>
>
> Like your compuer, it's sleeping with one ear (and maybe eye) open.

Are you trying to spread FUD again?

--
"Alea iacta est." (Julius Caesar)

On 2024-05-02 13:43, bad💽sector wrote:
> On 5/2/24 02:17, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2024-04-27 11:16, Theo wrote:
>>> Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> wrote:
>>>> On 25.04.24 15:55, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>>>>> Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote: [...]

....

>>>> Bullshit! The OS is not booted when the Android is turned off.
>>>
>>> AIUI it is, kind of. When you plug in the charger with the phone
>>> off, the phone starts. The bootloader then launches the Android
>>> kernel with the flag androidboot.mode=charger
>>>
>>> Instead of doing the full Android boot, that causes the kernel to
>>> launch a charger UI application that shows your battery
>>> percentage on the screen or an animation (which comes from files
>>> on your OS partition). The charger app doesn't allow you to
>>> otherwise interact with the phone and other services like the
>>> radios aren't running, but the SoC is booted and running
>>> software. The SoC is also doing standard power management, ie the
>>> charging process here likely looks very similar to charging when
>>> the phone is turned on (because it is, in essence).
>>>
>>> The full OS services are not running, but the Android kernel and
>>> the charger app is.
>>>
>>> Theo (usual caveats: my understanding may be out of date,
>>> different vendors may do their own thing, etc)
>>
>>
>> Hum! That's the best explanation I have seen so far. Thank you. It
>> explains things.
>
>
> Like your compuer, it's sleeping with one ear (and maybe eye) open.

Low power processors can do things like switch off circuitry, or stop
processing completely till some external event happens.

This is used in circuitry that runs on batteries for months, like the
speed meter of a bicycle. If the wheel doesn't turn, the processor and
everything sleeps, except the turn counter.

Well, this is the same idea: boot a different image that only powers up
what it needs in order to track battery power and charging.

Doable.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 5/2/24 17:59, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2024-05-02 13:43, bad💽sector wrote:
>> On 5/2/24 02:17, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>> On 2024-04-27 11:16, Theo wrote:
>>>> Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 25.04.24 15:55, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>>>>>> Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote: [...]
>
> ...
>
>>>>> Bullshit! The OS is not booted when the Android is turned off.
>>>>
>>>> AIUI it is, kind of.  When you plug in the charger with the phone
>>>>  off, the phone starts.  The bootloader then launches the Android
>>>> kernel with the flag androidboot.mode=charger
>>>>
>>>> Instead of doing the full Android boot, that causes the kernel to
>>>>  launch a charger UI application that shows your battery
>>>> percentage on the screen or an animation (which comes from files
>>>> on your OS partition).  The charger app doesn't allow you to
>>>> otherwise interact with the phone and other services like the
>>>> radios aren't running, but the SoC is booted and running software.
>>>> The SoC is also doing standard power management, ie the
>>>> charging process here likely looks very similar to charging when
>>>> the phone is turned on (because it is, in essence).
>>>>
>>>> The full OS services are not running, but the Android kernel and
>>>> the charger app is.
>>>>
>>>> Theo (usual caveats: my understanding may be out of date,
>>>> different vendors may do their own thing, etc)
>>>
>>>
>>> Hum!  That's the best explanation I have seen so far. Thank you. It
>>>  explains things.
>>
>>
>> Like your compuer, it's sleeping with one ear (and maybe eye) open.
>
> Low power processors can do things like switch off circuitry, or stop
> processing completely till some external event happens.

Like a suspersensitive motion sensor or passive mic? I don't wanna get
into that discussion, it's a whole another can of worms :-)

> This is used in circuitry that runs on batteries for months, like the
> speed meter of a bicycle. If the wheel doesn't turn, the processor and
> everything sleeps, except the turn counter.
>
> Well, this is the same idea: boot a different image that only powers up
> what it needs in order to track battery power and charging.
>
> Doable.

On 2024-05-02 13:21, bad💽sector wrote:
> On 5/2/24 02:14, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2024-04-26 22:53, bad sector wrote:
>>> On 4/25/24 21:28, micky wrote:
>>>> In comp.mobile.android, on Thu, 25 Apr 2024 07:00:53 -0400, bad?sector
>>>> <forgetski@_INVALID.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 4/25/24 05:29, Nick Cine wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 25 Apr 2024 09:47:17 +0100, Jeff Layman wrote:

....

>>>>>> How does any of that work? I don't know.
>>>>>
>>>>> For one thing the battery should be removable with one hand,
>>>>> blindfolded, in 3 seconds or less.
>>>>
>>>> Wyatt Earp could do that but I can't.
>>>
>>> Regulations require it for oxygen masks, if enough people demand it
>>> the same lawmakers can just as easily require it for cell phones as
>>> well.
>>
>> The EU is planning to regulate user replaceable batteries in phones
>> and other devices. No mention of doing it "with one hand, blindfolded,
>> in 3 seconds or less", though.
>
>
> I don't think they know what it means :-)
>
> Seriously, they're way ahead of us in handling foxes in chicken-coops! I
> say if a camera can have an easily ejectable battery then so can a
> phone. period.

Yes, but cameras are significantly thicker. And they are not water
proof. Not even rain resistant.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 03.05.24 13:42, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2024-05-02 13:21, bad💽sector wrote:
>> On 5/2/24 02:14, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>> The EU is planning to regulate user replaceable batteries in phones
>>> and other devices. No mention of doing it "with one hand, blindfolded,
>>> in 3 seconds or less", though.
>>
>>
>> I don't think they know what it means :-)
>>
>> Seriously, they're way ahead of us in handling foxes in chicken-coops! I
>> say if a camera can have an easily ejectable battery then so can a
>> phone. period.
>
> Yes, but cameras are significantly thicker. And they are not water
> proof. Not even rain resistant.

Bingo!

--
"Alea iacta est." (Julius Caesar)

On 5/3/24 07:42, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2024-05-02 13:21, bad💽sector wrote:
>> On 5/2/24 02:14, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>> On 2024-04-26 22:53, bad sector wrote:
>>>> On 4/25/24 21:28, micky wrote:
>>>>> In comp.mobile.android, on Thu, 25 Apr 2024 07:00:53 -0400, bad?sector
>>>>> <forgetski@_INVALID.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/25/24 05:29, Nick Cine wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 25 Apr 2024 09:47:17 +0100, Jeff Layman wrote:
>
> ...
>
>>>>>>> How does any of that work? I don't know.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For one thing the battery should be removable with one hand,
>>>>>> blindfolded, in 3 seconds or less.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wyatt Earp could do that but I can't.
>>>>
>>>> Regulations require it for oxygen masks, if enough people demand it
>>>> the same lawmakers can just as easily require it for cell phones as
>>>> well.
>>>
>>> The EU is planning to regulate user replaceable batteries in phones
>>> and other devices. No mention of doing it "with one hand,
>>> blindfolded, in 3 seconds or less", though.
>>
>>
>> I don't think they know what it means :-)
>>
>> Seriously, they're way ahead of us in handling foxes in chicken-coops!
>> I say if a camera can have an easily ejectable battery then so can a
>> phone. period.
>
> Yes, but cameras are significantly thicker. And they are not water
> proof. Not even rain resistant.
>

Reasonably good point and a hard switch can handle that, but a battery
having no moving parts is easy enough to waterproof too.

--
Interests: dogs, music, nature, animals, trees, diesels, tractors,
theology, biology, economy, bacteriae skunks, and humanity ..in that order.