Peter wrote:

> I don't know how they do it, but there's no way they can do it without
> indicating that the phone is off, when it's not really off at all.

The bluetooth radio will have its own microcontroller (possibly even a
full ARM CPU) supposedly the main phone CPU will pre-compute encrypted
FMDN beacon packets before shutting down, which the bluetooth radio will
then "chant under its breath" until the battery dies, without needing
the phone O/S to be running

Andrew <andrew@spam.net> writes:

> My only goal, really, is to be able to turn that stuff off.
> That's it.

What happens if you wrap your phone in tin foil? (seriously). If I put
my phone in a tin it will only ring if wifi calling is enabled.

Andrew <andrew@spam.net> wrote:
> Chris wrote on Mon, 3 Jun 2024 18:01:39 -0000 (UTC) :
>
>>> Nowadays location based services are of course more often used to
>>> distribute advertisements or to determine good locations to open the
>>> next fast food restaurant etc..
>>
>> Which are reasonable and acceptable use cases. "Andrew "is insinuating more
>> nefarious data capture.
>
> Hi Chris,
>
> Unfortunately, 999 out of 1,000 posters to this newsgroup don't know what
> they're talking about

Are you talking about yourself again? You seem to have stopped discussing
accident statistics all of a sudden and you aren't aware of iOS built in
capabilities.

So, before slinging insults at people have a look in the mirror first.

Chris wrote on Tue, 4 Jun 2024 08:58:11 -0000 (UTC) :

> So, before slinging insults at people have a look in the mirror first.

What did you learn by reading the reference you were supposed to read?
<https://xdaforums.com/t/privacy-do-you-know-a-way-to-permanently-disable-google-location-accuracy-precise-location-wi-fi-scanning-while-keeping-only-the-gps-radio-on.4543135/>

Richmond wrote on Tue, 04 Jun 2024 09:55:02 +0100 :

>> My only goal, really, is to be able to turn that stuff off.
>> That's it.
>
> What happens if you wrap your phone in tin foil? (seriously). If I put
> my phone in a tin it will only ring if wifi calling is enabled.

You're not as stupid as most of the people who posted so I will state that
there are things that *intelligent* people can do to remain private.

While I'm familiar with the concept of a Faraday cage, I'm speaking more
about the kinds of things that I write about in my XDA Developer tutorials.
https://xdaforums.com/m/galaxya325g.11604613/recent-content

The people who are not intelligent, are the ones ridiculing privacy.
It's not difficult to understand why those of the lowest IQ do that.

They don't understand anything, and certainly not privacy.
Don't be like those people.

On 6/4/2024 2:19 AM, Andy Burns wrote:
> Peter wrote:
>
>> I don't know how they do it, but there's no way they can do it without
>> indicating that the phone is off, when it's not really off at all.
>
> The bluetooth radio will have its own microcontroller (possibly even a
> full ARM CPU) supposedly the main phone CPU will pre-compute encrypted
> FMDN beacon packets before shutting down, which the bluetooth radio will
> then "chant under its breath" until the battery dies, without needing
> the phone O/S to be running
>
How does that compare to Apple tags? The implication of
your description would be that the cellphone only transmits where
it was at time of shutdown.

Last week I was reading about how
a carpenter got sick of having his tools stolen, so he put Apple
tags into some of them. He traced them to a storage garage.
(Oddly, the police then found millions of dollars worth of tools
in numerous garages. Apparently the thieves were industrious
but hadn't thought about how to resell their booty.)

So an Apple tag would be something like an RFID tag, and all
iPhones are enlisted into the tracking system? But a bluetooth
radio seems to have a different kind of function. On the other hand,
a transmission wouldn't need to include location if nearby phones
that pick it up track their own location.... There seems to be
something missing in this story. At any rate, I don't understand
it -- how it all works, what hardware is used, how far from an
active phone a turned-off phone can be and still be picked up,
etc.

Newyana2 wrote:
>     How does that compare to Apple tags? The implication of
> your description would be that the cellphone only transmits where
> it was at time of shutdown.
It doesn't transit a location, just an encrypted ID, it's left for
a.n.other android device which "hears" the transmission to report where
it was when it heard the ID being transmitted.
That's similar to how Apple SmartTags work, I believe.

On 6/4/2024 8:31 AM, Andy Burns wrote:
> Newyana2 wrote:
>
>>      How does that compare to Apple tags? The implication of
>> your description would be that the cellphone only transmits where
>> it was at time of shutdown.
>
> It doesn't transit a location, just an encrypted ID, it's left for
> a.n.other android device which "hears" the transmission to report where
> it was when it heard the ID being transmitted.
>
> That's similar to how Apple SmartTags work, I believe.
>

That would make sense. It would be like RFID tags, perhaps
with a battery signal booster. But then it's mysterious how
they can be tracked. The carpenter, for example, set out to find
his tools, following the beacon. But how likely is it that an
iPhone happens to be turned on within yards of that storage
garage? Or maybe all iPhones are reporting whatever they come
across, and someone with an iPhone happened to walk past
that garage last week?

It's not critical to know, of course. I'm just curious about how
all of this works. Recently there was a privacy discussion about
TVs communicating. My TVs are not Internet-connected. I find
it "beggars belief" to claim that the TV can and does talk to other
TVs in the neighborhood, eventually calling home with my viewing
habits. On the other hand, stranger things have happened.

Newyana2 wrote:

> But how likely is it that an iPhone happens to be turned on within
> yards of that storage garage? Or maybe all iPhones are reporting
> whatever they come across, and someone with an iPhone happened to
> walk past that garage last week?

Well, it does depend on a certain level of iPhones, and of course if you
lose something in a place nobody else visits, it'll never get stumbled upon.

Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> wrote:
> On 6/4/2024 8:31 AM, Andy Burns wrote:
>> Newyana2 wrote:
>>
>>>      How does that compare to Apple tags? The implication of
>>> your description would be that the cellphone only transmits where
>>> it was at time of shutdown.
>>
>> It doesn't transit a location, just an encrypted ID, it's left for
>> a.n.other android device which "hears" the transmission to report where
>> it was when it heard the ID being transmitted.
>>
>> That's similar to how Apple SmartTags work, I believe.
>>
>
> That would make sense. It would be like RFID tags, perhaps
> with a battery signal booster. But then it's mysterious how
> they can be tracked. The carpenter, for example, set out to find
> his tools, following the beacon. But how likely is it that an
> iPhone happens to be turned on within yards of that storage
> garage? Or maybe all iPhones are reporting whatever they come
> across, and someone with an iPhone happened to walk past
> that garage last week?

Correct. This is how it works. The airtag is battery powered and whenever
an apple device (and now google) passes by it logs what it has seen and
where. The mobile device doesn't even need to have a live data connection
as it'll upload its sightings the next time it is online.

The density of (i) phones is sufficient that even in remote areas - well
maybe not as remote as some parts of the US - a device will be spotted
pretty soon.

Andrew <andrew@spam.net> wrote:
> Chris wrote on Tue, 4 Jun 2024 08:58:11 -0000 (UTC) :

[ silent snip noted ]

>> So, before slinging insults at people have a look in the mirror first.
>
>
> What did you learn by reading the reference you were supposed to read?
> <https://xdaforums.com/t/privacy-do-you-know-a-way-to-permanently-disable-google-location-accuracy-precise-location-wi-fi-scanning-while-keeping-only-the-gps-radio-on.4543135/>

You mean the reference you wrote? I'm not going to anything I don't already
know.

Chris wrote:

> The airtag is battery powered and whenever
> an apple device (and now google) passes by it logs what it has seen and
> where. The mobile device doesn't even need to have a live data connection
> as it'll upload its sightings the next time it is online.

I did think the combined "fleet" of iphones and android phones were now
going to report positions of all tracking devices.

But it seems that they will operate as two isolated sets of devices,
iphones only reporting "findmy" devices and android phones only
reporting "findmydevice" devices.

The only functionality they will share is warning of devices that are
travelling with you, yet separated from their owner (i.e. being used as
stalking devices).

Andy Burns wrote on Tue, 4 Jun 2024 17:14:46 +0100 :

> But it seems that they will operate as two isolated sets of devices,
> iphones only reporting "findmy" devices and android phones only
> reporting "findmydevice" devices.
>
> The only functionality they will share is warning of devices that are
> travelling with you, yet separated from their owner (i.e. being used as
> stalking devices).

Thanks for explaining & summarizing as I haven't delved into how they work.

If that's true, then that's a nice summary, as my main concern is simply to
stay out of the databases, so I also appreciate the questions Mayayana has
been asking.

1. iPhones report findmy trackers; Androids report findmydevice trackers.
2. Both warn you when rogue findmy and/or findmydevice trackers are nearby.

The main basic privacy question I'd have is how my phone is reported.
And what I can do on my phone to prevent it from being reported by either.

I don't want to be in either Apple's or Google's findmy(device) databases.
Any advice there?

Chris wrote on Tue, 4 Jun 2024 16:11:50 -0000 (UTC) :

>> What did you learn by reading the reference you were supposed to read?
>> <https://xdaforums.com/t/privacy-do-you-know-a-way-to-permanently-disable-google-location-accuracy-precise-location-wi-fi-scanning-while-keeping-only-the-gps-radio-on.4543135/>
>
> You mean the reference you wrote? I'm not going to anything I don't already
> know.

Heh heh heh... you prove my point for me.

Q: What do you know?
A: Nothing

Q: What did you learn?
A: Nothing

Q: What did you plan on learning?
A: Nothing

There's a name for people like you, Chris.
When I use that name, you get upset.

So I'll let you come up with the name.

Q: What should we call people like you Chris?
A: ?

Andrew wrote:

> I don't want to be in either Apple's or Google's findmy(device) databases.
> Any advice there?

Not so far, but today I installed nRFConnect

<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=no.nordicsemi.android.mcp>

to see how many BLE beacons are floating around, so far fairly quiet
here, one FitBit Versa, one unknown HP device, one Apple iBeacon and a
Stanley B&D Oven ... none of which are mine.

None of my own devices have shown up.

On 6/4/24 12:48, Andrew wrote:

> I don't want to be in either Apple's or Google's findmy(device) databases.
> Any advice there?

Have only one, the Miami device, the one between your legs :-)

Andy Burns wrote on Tue, 4 Jun 2024 18:38:50 +0100 :

>> I don't want to be in either Apple's or Google's findmy(device) databases.
>> Any advice there?
>
> Not so far, but today I installed nRFConnect
>
> <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=no.nordicsemi.android.mcp>

Thanks for that suggested app, where I had used, in the past, Apple's app.
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.apple.trackerdetect>
And I had used AirGuard too, neither of which found anything at my home.
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=de.seemoo.at_tracking_detection.release>

Yet the Nordic Semiconductor nRF app you suggested found a medical device
which I'm aware of, but which I had not known it had bluetooth capability.
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=no.nordicsemi.android.mcp>

That medical device didn't show up under the "SCANNER" tab, nor under the
"ADVERTISER" tab of the nRF app, but in the "BONDED" tab of the nRF app.

Looking up what "Bonded" means in this context, using this Google search
<https://www.google.com/search?q=what+does+bonded+mean+for+bluetooth+trackers>

The first hit is this page which explains bonding and pairing of bluetooth.
<https://technotes.kynetics.com/2018/BLE_Pairing_and_bonding/>

Pairing: process where devices exchange the information necessary to
establish an encrypted connection. It involves authenticating the identity
of the two devices to be paired, encrypting the link, and distributing keys
to allow security to be restarted on a reconnection.

Bonding: process where the information from the pairing process is stored
on the devices, so that the pairing process does not have to be repeated
every time the devices reconnect to each other.

> to see how many BLE beacons are floating around, so far fairly quiet
> here, one FitBit Versa, one unknown HP device, one Apple iBeacon and a
> Stanley B&D Oven ... none of which are mine.

I live in the boonies so I wouldn't have expected any bluetooth devices to
show up in my first scan at home, but I'll try this at a local store to see
if it picks up any bluetooth trackers I presume some stores have installed.
> None of my own devices have shown up.

I was surprised that the nRF app picked up a bluetooth medical device,
which I recognize by the brand name but which I had no idea had bluetooth.

Andrew, 2024-06-03 23:03:

[...]
> To do that is simple: *Answer this fundamental question*.
>
> Why has Google unilaterally made it so that you can't do routing
> without turning on the Wi-Fi "precise location" when GPS worked just
> fine for decades?

OSMAnd works fine for navigation even with WiFi completely turned off.

And Google Maps uses WiFi as well to provide a *much* faster location
determiniation when a GPS fix is not ready yet. With OSMAnd it takes me
sometimes a few minutes(!) before the app knows the location based on
GPS only.

> Before you answer that, read this directly related reference please.
> <https://xdaforums.com/t/privacy-do-you-know-a-way-to-permanently-disable-google-location-accuracy-precise-location-wi-fi-scanning-while-keeping-only-the-gps-radio-on.4543135/>
>
> Then answer the basic and rather simple fundamental question please.

On my device - a Google Pixel 6a - "Wi-Fi scanning" and "Bluetooth
scanning" is *off* and does *never* turn on itself, also not when using
Google Maps, since Google Maps does not need these options to be enabled.

Also read the post on XDA: it is not Google which turns on these options
but third party apps like "Parked Car", "Car Location" and "Find my
parked car"!

I usually use the "Parking position" plugin in OSMAnd and *never* hat
the problem, that "Wi-Fi scanning" or "Bluetooth scanning" got turned on
when using that. Also Google Maps *never* turned these options on.

Maybe there was once a version of Google Maps which did not work without
"Wi-Fi scanning" or "Bluetooth scanning" - but at least version
11.131.0102 does not need these options.

--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de

Andrew, 2024-06-04 07:19:

> Andrew wrote on Mon, 3 Jun 2024 20:13:28 -0000 (UTC) :
>
>> Let's be clear that a subtle portion of my rant against Apple's and
>> Google's brazen lies as to *why* they're preventing us from turning off our
>> tracking radios is partly that the morons (who outnumber the intelligentsia
>> 1000 to 1) are also tracking us - which is easy to prove with Wi-APs.
>
> I belatedly realized I hadn't backed up that claim, but since only 1 out of
> a million people know this information, here's the backup reference cite.
> <https://xdaforums.com/t/privacy-does-android-upload-your-home-ap-ssid-bssid-gps-if-the-home-ap-broadcast-beacon-is-hidden.4284897/>

No - hiding an SSID does *NOTHING* for privacy when you *use* a WiFi
network! The SSID is *alway* visible for connected devices, even when it
is "hidden".

You also need to avoid using Google devices in your WiFi network at all
and forbid others to do so as well.

--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de

On 2024-06-11, Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> wrote:
> Andrew, 2024-06-04 07:19:
>> Andrew wrote on Mon, 3 Jun 2024 20:13:28 -0000 (UTC) :
>>
>>> Let's be clear that a subtle portion of my rant against Apple's and
>>> Google's brazen lies as to *why* they're preventing us from turning
>>> off our tracking radios is partly that the morons (who outnumber the
>>> intelligentsia 1000 to 1) are also tracking us - which is easy to
>>> prove with Wi-APs.
>>
>> I belatedly realized I hadn't backed up that claim, but since only 1
>> out of a million people know this information, here's the backup
>> reference cite.
>
> No - hiding an SSID does *NOTHING* for privacy when you *use* a WiFi
> network! The SSID is *alway* visible for connected devices, even when
> it is "hidden".

Andrew has shown in this thread that he knows very little about how WiFi
actually works. You'll have to excuse him. He's not a serious person -
just a troll.

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR