micky wrote:
> I guess Android®3 is from long ago, but perhaps it's still true, that
> tapping the “recent apps” soft key will close all applications!!! ?????
>
> And the “recent apps” soft key is the square symbol at the bottom, is
> that right?
I think the intention is to get you away from whatever app is displaying
the pop-up.
Back then, many phones still had physical areas dedicated to
triangle=back/circle=home/square=app-switcher
Now they've either been replaced with soft areas, or removed altogether
in favour of gestures.

Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> writes:

> On 6/1/2024 3:15 PM, Richmond wrote:
>> Why would anyone think that? The news article says "However, the NSA
>> document does warn that the turn it off and on again advice will only
>> sometimes prevent these attacks from being successful."
>>
>
> Do you know how that's so? I didn't see any version of this news
> that explained the claim. Spearphishing has nothing to do with
> resident malware. And the rest of the advice is mostly things
> that few understand and fewer would do.

I can only speculate, a spear fishing attack could take you to a
malicious website, which then inserts malware via a vulnerability in
your browser. This malware could remain in memory until you reboot.

> I'm all for better security on cellphones, but to my mind this
> is just an example of how the mainstream media feeds the public
> any old clickbait, but avoids actually printing useful information.
> If they did then no one would read their stuff. That's why they're
> the *mainstream* media. This case was a perfect example.
> Forbes took a half-baked, entirely unexplained graphic from
> the NSA -- probably intended for agents -- and reduced it to
> "NSA Warns iPhone And Android Users To Turn It Off And On Again".
>
> People read that and, like you, think they've learned how to
> protect their phone from attacks with a nearly effortless trick.

No, not like me. I didn't learn anything from the article. I reboot my
phone from time to time anyway because I already knew it is a good idea.

> It's like the way that privacy articles always tell us to delete
> cookies once in awhile. That advice is not wrong, but it misleads
> people into thinking they understand the issue when they really
> don't.

On 6/2/2024 1:37 AM, The Real Bev wrote:

>> The news article says "The NSA also advises Phone users to disable
>> Bluetooth when not using it" but isn't Google and Apple keeping the
>> bluetooth radio permanently on because they want to sell trackers?
>
> Why would a radio be bluetooth?  Does anyone actually use separate
> radios now?  And if they did, why would they want it to play through
> their phone?  Or is it the radio on the phone playing through bluetooth
> speakers?
>
I think Peter just means bluetooth functionality:

https://www.androidpolice.com/android-15-auto-enable-bluetooth/

There was talk at one point of stores even using bluetooth beacons
to track shoppers, allowing them to assess what products people
look at on shelves and whether or not they buy a product that they
look at.

https://themarkup.org/privacy/2023/02/16/forget-milk-and-eggs-supermarkets-are-having-a-fire-sale-on-data-about-you

So, Google and Apple are tracking location. Google is also buying
credit card data and cooperating with stores to know when you're
actually within a store's building. Apps are spying and selling location
data. Bluetooth, then, is just adding finer data to the mix. Now they
know you're in the produce aisle or looking at pasta. Perhaps they
can even send you a youtube video in real time with a recipe for
lasagna. This stuff strains the imagination's capacity. Even the Jason
Bourne movies have become outdated. (But I sure would love to
see a Bourne 2024 sequel. "Boss, sensors in a convenience store just
picked up Bourne's pheromones, and an undocumented cellphone in
the same store is calling Sacramento." "OK, let's get teams to both
locations in 5 minutes.")

I don't know why the NSA cares about bluetooth. Presumably
bluetooth transmissions can be hacked somehow, perhaps getting the
transmission or even hacking into the cellphone through a
man-in-the-middle style hack. Or maybe the microphone can be
accessed to listen in to someone talking nearby. But I don't know
whether such things are actually possible.

It's surprising to me how much people who live by cellphone still
don't understand that all this is going on. I go into Whole Foods
and see nearly every customer flash their Amazon Prime ID from
their cellphone. They think they're clever because they just got 10%
off on scallops that WF marked up 20% in order to provide a Prime
discount. It's all about convenience. People are always surprised or
even incredulous when they hear about they spying. They're focused
only on convenience. And also an irrational fear of cash. Younger
people especially seem to actually fear cash. I've come to feel like
a swaggering Marlon Brando character when I pull out my pile of
bills.... I suppose these are the people who grew up wearing a helmet
for supervised tricycle riding. They feel in danger when some external
authority is not running their life. Cash is just too "unofficial" to allow
into one's life. Anything could happen!

A good example of the gap in understanding is the man who was
arrested for murdering 4 college students
in Idaho. The police got his phone data, showing that he drove by the
house a number of times and sometimes parked outside. He also turned
off his cellphone for an hour at the time of the murders. So the man
understood enough to know that his location could be tracked if his
cellphone were turned on, but he didn't actually grok how extensive
the surveillance is. (Last I heard he was claiming that he has insomnia
and often went out for long drives at night.) *He never actually
understood that by carrying a cellphone turned on he was being
constantly monitored.* Few people do understand that. They think
it's tinfoil hat talk.

So it's not hard to imagine that all those vulnerabilities might be
accessed by criminal elements or foreign spies. With all the people
shopping and banking on cellphones, looking for ways to hack in
becomes the 21st century version of a treasure map... I'm beginning
to think that's how the world will end. Not meteors or nuclear war.
Instead, some group of anarchist psychos will hack the world's computer
networks. From there they'll be able to change everyone's
bank balance every 15 minutes, void your identity, create endless
fake identities, erase trucking and shipping computers... We'd all
be murdered, starve to death, or be run over by driverless taxis within
days... Millennials and GenZers will simply die of exposure to reality
and lack of therapy appointments, within 2 weeks of their cellphones
malfunctioning. Our only hope will be Jason Bourne. :)

In comp.mobile.android, on Sun, 2 Jun 2024 07:05:31 +0200, Jörg Lorenz
<hugybear@gmx.net> wrote:

>Am 02.06.24 um 06:06 schrieb micky:
>> In comp.mobile.android, on Sat, 1 Jun 2024 08:05:03 +0200, Jörg Lorenz
>> <hugybear@gmx.net> wrote:
>>> A cellphone is nothing else than a desktop machine or laptop: A
>>
>> I was going to point out that Android has many and major differences
>> from Windows, but that would just lead to a fight, so I won't say
>> anything.
>
>The only *relevant* difference is that Android runs apps in sandboxes
>that require elevated rights. And who cares about Windows?

LOL If you don't like my stories, don't read them.
>
>BTW: You are not knowing much about the devices you use and now you want
>to brag? Hint: You cannot solve your social issues with a cellphone.
>
>*ROTFLSTC*

On Sat, 1 Jun 2024 22:37:15 -0700, The Real Bev wrote:

> Why would a radio be bluetooth?

There are probably five to ten different radios on any given smartphone.

Radio spectrum stretches from 30 Hz to 300 GHz. The lower the frequency the
longer the range. However, the lower the frequency the lower the data rate
it can support. As a result, selecting a radio spectrum comes with
tradeoffs between range and data rate.

Bluetooth technology uses the 2.4 GHz ISM spectrum band (2400 to 2483.5
MHz), which enables a good balance between range and throughput. In
addition, the 2.4 GHz band is available worldwide, making it a true
standard for low-power wireless connectivity.

https://www.bluetooth.com/learn-about-bluetooth/key-attributes/range/

Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> wrote:
> So, Google and Apple are tracking location. Google is also buying
> credit card data and cooperating with stores to know when you're
> actually within a store's building. Apps are spying and selling location
> data. Bluetooth, then, is just adding finer data to the mix. Now they
> know you're in the produce aisle or looking at pasta.

You understand the problem but most people don't even know that bluetooth
is radio-frequency emissions - which Google & Apple both have a vested
interest in making easily trackable by not allowing you to keep them off.

We already had Google enforcing "precise location" tracking with last
summer's secret and undeniable update of Google Maps, which turns on a
whole bunch of tracking settings that most people don't even know exist.

And now, with Android 15, Google is apparently planning to keep up the
tracking by not allowing you to turn off your bluetooth radio for long.

Even worse perhaps, is you can no longer completely power down a phone.

Both Google's and Apple's latest phones don't allow you to turn them off
for real. The iPhones and the latest Pixels are still running Google's and
Apple's tracking activities even when you think you've turned them off.

On 2024-06-02 13:41, Bill Powell wrote:

>
> Radio spectrum stretches from 30 Hz

ELF says "hold my beer". It says it quite slowly, mind.

--
Fore Score and Seven Years ago our Four Fathers fought a lot.
- some guy on the Internet in the 1860's

On 2024-06-02 14:00, Peter wrote:

> which Google & Apple both have a vested
> interest in making easily trackable by not allowing you to keep them off.

Can you cite a reliable source for this?

--
Fore Score and Seven Years ago our Four Fathers fought a lot.
- some guy on the Internet in the 1860's

Alan Browne <singularity@blackhole.org> wrote:
>> which Google & Apple both have a vested
>> interest in making easily trackable by not allowing you to keep them off.
>
> Can you cite a reliable source for this?

Not only is it well known information, but there were already reliable
sources previously cited in this very thread by Newyana2, which you
shouldn't be asking me to repeat just because you didn't bother to look.

On Sun, 2 Jun 2024 15:18:20 -0400, Alan Browne wrote:

>> Radio spectrum stretches from 30 Hz
>
> ELF says "hold my beer". It says it quite slowly, mind.

The question from "The Real Bev" was "Why would a radio be bluetooth?"
where since bluetooth, at 2.4GHz, is smack in the middle of the radio range
logarithm of 30 Hz to 300GHz, that question from "The Real Bev" should be
reversed as in "Why would bluetooth be a radio".

My answer was that there are many radio-frequency radios in a smartphone.

Unwanted Apple & Google tracking of people's activities by bluetooth is
just one of the ways both companies log and track much of what people do.

On 6/1/2024 8:56 PM, The Real Bev wrote:

> So since I always turn my phone and computer off (along with the lights,
> TV, radio...) when I go to bed I should be safe, right?

You may think you're turning your phone off at night but in many phones,
particularly Apple phones and the latest Google phones, it's never off.

https://www.google.com/search?q=apple+phones+are+always+tracking+you
https://www.google.com/search?q=android+phones+are+always+tracking+you

But the operative word here is "reboot" - which is what the NSA means.

The goal is to wipe clean resident memory, I think, but people on this
group list who understand the process better can help you more than me.

Andy Burns wrote on Sun, 2 Jun 2024 08:34:28 +0100 :

> I think the intention is to get you away from whatever app is displaying
> the pop-up.
>
> Back then, many phones still had physical areas dedicated to
> triangle=back/circle=home/square=app-switcher
>
> Now they've either been replaced with soft areas, or removed altogether
> in favour of gestures.

More and more, I find that obnoxious apps don't provide the bottom
triangle/circle/square which bother me as they at the same time don't
supply any quit/exit/back button within the displayed app activity.

I don't agree with "gestures" so I never studied them, and as a result of
my ignorance of gestures, I end up swiping about (almost willy nilly) until
the bottom triangle/circle/square returns.

It would be nice if there's an app to force the triangle/circle/square to
stay put in all activities. Do you think that's even possible to set up?

On 6/2/24 15:45, Andrew wrote:
> Andy Burns wrote on Sun, 2 Jun 2024 08:34:28 +0100 :
>
>> I think the intention is to get you away from whatever app is displaying
>> the pop-up.
>>
>> Back then, many phones still had physical areas dedicated to
>> triangle=back/circle=home/square=app-switcher
>>
>> Now they've either been replaced with soft areas, or removed altogether
>> in favour of gestures.
>
> More and more, I find that obnoxious apps don't provide the bottom
> triangle/circle/square which bother me as they at the same time don't
> supply any quit/exit/back button within the displayed app activity.
>
> I don't agree with "gestures" so I never studied them, and as a result of
> my ignorance of gestures, I end up swiping about (almost willy nilly) until
> the bottom triangle/circle/square returns.
>
> It would be nice if there's an app to force the triangle/circle/square to
> stay put in all activities. Do you think that's even possible to set up?

The art/science is still relatively new, gestures SUCK, I see a COMMAND
PARAGRAPH on every page that shows all possible NAV and such buttons
with precise and crisp control, feel, and feedback and NOTHING left to
the still much too typical swamp-mushy "no one really knows". These
should include ALL possible reactions to the page material with nothing
left to yet another interminable series of hoops. Unavailable icons
should be ghosted instead of missing because another thing that sucks
like a non-binary Electorlux is dynamic menus. Page spatial awareness is
seamless when catered to with fixed reference points, else it's a royal
PITA.

bad sector wrote:

> The art/science is still relatively new, gestures SUCK [...]

[...] until you get used them after which, gestures RULE.

I do realise there are people with e.g. dexterity issues where gestures
may not be the answer, but have you given them a *serious* go for a few
days, they just become 2nd nature and you'll never want to see
square/circle/triangle again ...

Peter wrote:

> Both Google's and Apple's latest phones don't allow you to turn them off
> for real. The iPhones and the latest Pixels are still running Google's and
> Apple's tracking activities even when you think you've turned them off.

Now, I don't claim to know or care much about Apple products, but I
think airtags are relatively popular? Because of that, Google were
/bound/ to want to match that feature, hence the [very] new
functionality to findmydevice.

Yes, in a limited sense certain parts of your phone may never be "off",
I suspect we don't know yet whether disabling the findmydevice feature
*does* allow it to be really off.

Some people were paranoid about the covid tracking feature, but you
could turn it off, or not install the app, and I don't remember any
actual issue with it in the end?

On 6/2/24 17:39, Andy Burns wrote:
> bad sector wrote:
>
>> The art/science is still relatively new, gestures SUCK [...]
>
> [...] until you get used them after which, gestures RULE.
>
> I do realise there are people with e.g. dexterity issues where gestures
> may not be the answer, but have you given them a *serious* go for a few
> days, they just become 2nd nature and you'll never want to see
> square/circle/triangle again ...

I just don't have the time!!! To tell you the truth there's very little
that I like about my (1st) 'smart' phone. Had a plain-Jane flipper
before it and that one couldn't even texto. Unless the providers stop
catering to that early type on a pro-rata basis I would not be surprised
if I dump 'smart' altogether and return to one of them. No dexterity
issues, but I do hate the entire industry with extreme prejudice on
account of the insane hand-held non-desktop whorehouse beginning to
pollute the thinking even on real desktops like KDE and XFCE.

That said, and to stay on topic, I think the NSA is absolutely right, I
would edit shutdown to a full reset+tweakathon once a month, one
beneficial byproduct being knowing by heart what there is, what you
want, and what takes a freakin' hike. The negative effects of not
resetting or at least shutting down frequently will probably visit the
europid herds first; chinese (hint) phone sales there rose 50-70% last
year VS. Apple/Samsung continuing to slide.

On 2024-06-02 21:39:39 +0000, Andy Burns said:
> bad sector wrote:
>>
>> The art/science is still relatively new, gestures SUCK [...]
>
> [...] until you get used them after which, gestures RULE.
>
> I do realise there are people with e.g. dexterity issues where gestures
> may not be the answer, but have you given them a *serious* go for a few
> days, they just become 2nd nature and you'll never want to see
> square/circle/triangle again ...

Wishy-washy "gestures" with zero visual guidance are incredibly silly
and user-UNfriendly. An actual button (whether physical or on-screen)
that you can see will always be a far far better method.

On 6/2/2024 3:24 PM, Peter wrote:
> Alan Browne <singularity@blackhole.org> wrote:
>>> which Google & Apple both have a vested
>>> interest in making easily trackable by not allowing you to keep them off.
>>
>> Can you cite a reliable source for this?
>
> Not only is it well known information, but there were already reliable
> sources previously cited in this very thread by Newyana2, which you
> shouldn't be asking me to repeat just because you didn't bother to look.
>

I think that's a reasonable question. I can turn off my
Android cellphone, and I do. If it's really true that phones
are now being made that can't be powered down, that's
shocking and nonsensical. Not that I don't believe it, but
I'd like to know the facts one way or the other. If that's really
the case then I suppose the only way to stop tracking
would be too keep the phone in something like a metal
cigarette case.

In comp.mobile.android, on Sun, 2 Jun 2024 19:41:50 +0200, Bill Powell
<bill@anarchists.org> wrote:

>On Sat, 1 Jun 2024 22:37:15 -0700, The Real Bev wrote:
>
>> Why would a radio be bluetooth?
>
>There are probably five to ten different radios on any given smartphone.

I'm sure I've seen articles that refer to all the transmitters in the
phone as radios. (bluetooth, wifi, data, probably voice too although
the articles were about turning off all the radios except maybe that
one.)
>
>Radio spectrum stretches from 30 Hz to 300 GHz. The lower the frequency the
>longer the range. However, the lower the frequency the lower the data rate
>it can support. As a result, selecting a radio spectrum comes with
>tradeoffs between range and data rate.
>
>Bluetooth technology uses the 2.4 GHz ISM spectrum band (2400 to 2483.5
>MHz), which enables a good balance between range and throughput. In
>addition, the 2.4 GHz band is available worldwide, making it a true
>standard for low-power wireless connectivity.
>
>https://www.bluetooth.com/learn-about-bluetooth/key-attributes/range/

Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> wrote:
>>>> which Google & Apple both have a vested
>>>> interest in making easily trackable by not allowing you to keep them off.
>>>
>>> Can you cite a reliable source for this?
>>
>> Not only is it well known information, but there were already reliable
>> sources previously cited in this very thread by Newyana2, which you
>> shouldn't be asking me to repeat just because you didn't bother to look.
>>
>
> I think that's a reasonable question. I can turn off my
> Android cellphone, and I do. If it's really true that phones
> are now being made that can't be powered down, that's
> shocking and nonsensical. Not that I don't believe it, but
> I'd like to know the facts one way or the other. If that's really
> the case then I suppose the only way to stop tracking
> would be too keep the phone in something like a metal
> cigarette case.

There are two issues that are moving in the wrong direction for privacy
which we have to take separately, but which both Apple & Google benefit
from by not allowing you to be safe from their tracking activities.

1. The phones still track even when you think you've turned them off.
2. The bluetooth radios turn back on despite you turning them off.

You already gave a cite and others did too for the bluetooth issue.
The cite for the phones never turning off is in another recent thread.

Google's "Find My Debvice Network" by Stan Brown (4 days ago)
https://comp.mobile.android.narkive.com/5eS53TT8/google-s-find-my-debvice-network

One relevant post with a cite showing the phones never turn off being this.

"thanks to specialized Pixel hardware, Pixel 8 and 8 Pro owners
will also be able to find their devices if they're powered off
or the battery is dead"
<https://blog.google/products/android/android-find-my-device/>

In that same thread is another cite about bluetooth turning back on.

"Android 15 will add a new feature that can automatically turn
on Bluetooth the day after you've disabled it.
Your phone's Bluetooth radio is used for several key Android features,
such as Quick Share and Find My Device.
Disabling Bluetooth will slightly improve battery, but the trade-off
is that your device won't be able to contribute to Google's Find My
Device network."
<https://www.androidauthority.com/android-15-bluetooth-auto-on-3431445/>

There is a good argument that they're doing this because they make a lot of
money tracking you, even if you try to turn off bluetooth & even then, if
you try to turn off the phone - they still want to be able to track you.

Your Name wrote:

> Wishy-washy "gestures" with zero visual guidance are incredibly silly
> and user-UNfriendly. An actual button (whether physical or on-screen)
> that you can see will always be a far far better method.

Depends on the device, I won't be buying a car that requires use of a
touch screen, let alone gestures, give me physical buttons.

But for a phone/tablet that is handheld, and already uses a touch
screen, I have no problems with gestures.

Newyana2 wrote:

> If it's really true that phones
> are now being made that can't be powered down, that's
> shocking and nonsensical.

To be clear, certain parts of them can remain on while the majority of
the phone is definitely off.

Peter <confused@nospam.net> wrote:
> Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> wrote:
>>>>> which Google & Apple both have a vested
>>>>> interest in making easily trackable by not allowing you to keep them off.
>>>>
>>>> Can you cite a reliable source for this?
>>>
>>> Not only is it well known information, but there were already reliable
>>> sources previously cited in this very thread by Newyana2, which you
>>> shouldn't be asking me to repeat just because you didn't bother to look.
>>>
>>
>> I think that's a reasonable question. I can turn off my
>> Android cellphone, and I do. If it's really true that phones
>> are now being made that can't be powered down, that's
>> shocking and nonsensical. Not that I don't believe it, but
>> I'd like to know the facts one way or the other. If that's really
>> the case then I suppose the only way to stop tracking
>> would be too keep the phone in something like a metal
>> cigarette case.
>
> There are two issues that are moving in the wrong direction for privacy
> which we have to take separately, but which both Apple & Google benefit
> from by not allowing you to be safe from their tracking activities.
>
> 1. The phones still track even when you think you've turned them off.

That's a user convenience to be able to find lost or stolen devices. Hugely
beneficial.

> 2. The bluetooth radios turn back on despite you turning them off.

Not true on ios. You can turn it off permanently.

Chris wrote:

> Peter wrote:
>
>> 2. The bluetooth radios turn back on despite you turning them off.
>
> Not true on ios. You can turn it off permanently.

The auto turning back on is only present in Android 15, which isn't out
of beta yet, things could change.

If people want to disable these new features, that's fine, but it should
prevent them from benefitting from the new features. If you don't want
to contribute to the findmydevice network that's OK, but don't expect to
be able to use the findmydevice network when/if you lose your own phone ...

Andy Burns wrote on Mon, 3 Jun 2024 08:34:21 +0100 :

> Chris wrote:
>
>> Peter wrote:
>>
>>> 2. The bluetooth radios turn back on despite you turning them off.
>>
>> Not true on ios. You can turn it off permanently.
>
> The auto turning back on is only present in Android 15, which isn't out
> of beta yet, things could change.
>
> If people want to disable these new features, that's fine, but it should
> prevent them from benefitting from the new features. If you don't want
> to contribute to the findmydevice network that's OK, but don't expect to
> be able to use the findmydevice network when/if you lose your own phone ...

I realize most people do exactly what marketing tells them to do, like
sheep led to slaughter - but for the few people who are intelligent, this
comment below will resonate (but it will NOT resonate with the morons).

A phone is a commodity, which most of us get for free or for extremely low
costs (e.g., T-Mobile gave everyone in the USA on their postpaid plan a
free phone who wanted it - see my note below copied in the sig proving it).

If we lose it, big deal. We lose a free phone. There's no real loss there.
<https://i.postimg.cc/YC1B906F/tmopromo01.jpg>

All personal data that is of security implications (e.g., financial
information and password information) is in encrypted containers) so
there's no loss there given the sd card is backed up frequently to the PC.

We don't even lose our apps or our data since it's trivial to backup &
restore where even the EXACT location in our folders is replicated to the
new phone, as are all the EXACT apps and the EXACT versions of those apps
(even if those versions are no longer available in the respective repos).

My point is that losing the phone is nothing. It's not even inconvenient.
There's no loss of data. There's not even a cost to replace it.

But losing your privacy by being tracked every moment of the day is a big
loss, and that is what happens with the bluetooth tracking of Google/Apple.
--
Bearing in mind that Android updates in discrete layers; not as a monolith.
<https://source.android.com/static/docs/core/architecture/images/modular_system_components_arch.png>

Today I received yet another update which updated my Galaxy A32-5G to
*Security Patch Level: May 1, 2024*
<https://i.postimg.cc/dtjXVrTY/update.jpg>

History:
The US Samsung Galaxy A32-5G debuted in January of 2021.

I received a handful for free in April of 2021 one of which is the one I
use most, which was twice replaced for free as I mess with phones a lot.
<https://i.postimg.cc/YC1B906F/tmopromo01.jpg>

It came with Android 11 but it was updated to 12 and then to Android 13.
I'm not sure if it's updatable to Android 14 though (how would I know?).

As with all Androids on version 10+ on the net, it's also updated monthly
over the Google Play system update feature (previously called Project
Mainline); but that only updates the ~25 core modules in Android 13 that
are updated in Project Mainline.
<https://source.android.com/docs/core/ota/modular-system>

What kills most of my older phones was the battery, but this five amp hour
battery is going so strongly that I don't bother to charge it except when
it's needed (as it goes a couple of days easily without needing charging).

The phone only came with 64GB but with the SD card, it's basically
unlimited (where I store anything I add to the phone on the sd card).

If you received a phone around 3 years ago, how well is it doing for you?