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comp / comp.misc / Re: the early teletype

SubjectAuthor
* the early teletypeRetrograde
`* Re: the early teletypeLawrence D'Oliveiro
 +- Re: the early teletypeJohn Ames
 `* Re: the early teletypeCharlie Gibbs
  +* Re: the early teletypeLawrence D'Oliveiro
  |+* Re: the early teletypeSn!pe
  ||`* Re: the early teletypeLawrence D'Oliveiro
  || +* Re: the early teletypeSn!pe
  || |+* Re: the early teletypeCharlie Gibbs
  || ||`* Re: the early teletypeCarlos E.R.
  || || `* Re: the early teletypeScott Lurndal
  || ||  `* Re: the early teletypeCharlie Gibbs
  || ||   `* Re: the early teletypeCarlos E.R.
  || ||    +* Re: the early teletypeDavid Wade
  || ||    |+- Re: the early teletypeCarlos E.R.
  || ||    |`* Re: the early teletypeChris Ahlstrom
  || ||    | +- Re: the early teletypeSn!pe
  || ||    | +- Re: the early teletypeCharlie Gibbs
  || ||    | `- Re: the early teletypeScott Dorsey
  || ||    +* Re: the early teletypeJohn Levine
  || ||    |+* Re: the early teletypeDennis Boone
  || ||    ||+- Re: the early teletypeCarlos E.R.
  || ||    ||`* Re: the early teletypeChris Ahlstrom
  || ||    || `* Re: the early teletypeDennis Boone
  || ||    ||  `- Re: the early teletypeChris Ahlstrom
  || ||    |`- Re: the early teletypeCharlie Gibbs
  || ||    `* Re: the early teletypeScott Dorsey
  || ||     `* Re: the early teletypeCharlie Gibbs
  || ||      `- Re: the early teletypeJohn Levine
  || |`- Re: the early teletypeSn!pe
  || `* Re: the early teletypeDavid Wade
  ||  `* Re: the early teletypeLawrence D'Oliveiro
  ||   `- Re: the early teletypeDavid Wade
  |`- Re: the early teletypecandycanearter07
  `* Re: the early teletypeScott Dorsey
   `* Re: the early teletypeLawrence D'Oliveiro
    +* Re: the early teletypeWolfgang Agnes
    |`- Re: the early teletypeLawrence D'Oliveiro
    `* Re: the early teletypeScott Dorsey
     `- Re: the early teletypeLawrence D'Oliveiro

Pages:12
Subject: Re: the early teletype
From: Sn!pe
Newsgroups: comp.misc, alt.folklore.computers
Organization: Sn!peCo World Wide Wading Birds
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2024 20:00 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Path: eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!snipe.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe)
Newsgroups: comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: the early teletype
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2024 20:00:48 +0000
Organization: Sn!peCo World Wide Wading Birds
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Sn!pe <snipeco.2@gmail.com> wrote:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 22:19:48 +0000, Sn!pe wrote:
> >
> > > Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
> > >
> > >> On Thu, 14 Nov 2024 18:45:48 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > Original Teletype machines ran at 45.45 baud.
> > >>
> > >> I remember labels on Creed machines saying "50Bd".
> > >
> > > I had a Creed 7B 60 years ago, I used it for RTTY. It had two
> > > governers, one for 45.45 Bd, the other for 50Bd. They had white
> > > strobe marks on the circumference to set the speed accurately.
> >
> > Hmmm ... presumably the strobe marks were for use with a fluorescent
> > light ... driven from AC mains frequency? Did they have different marks
> > for 50Hz versus 60Hz mains?
> >
> > No, that wouldn't work, you would need entirely different gearing for the
> > strobe wheel ...
>
> IIRC 50Bd was the US standard, most common in the rest of the world
> was 45.45Bd There was no gearing involved, the governor was attached
> directly to the motor spindle and the strobe timing marks were on the
> governors themselves. I think (I'm not sure) that there were a
> different number of strobe marks on either governor.
>
> I speak from personal experience but it was 60 years ago when I was
> a teenager and memory is a tricky thing.

P. S. Pics. here, note the governor on the left. I think that must be
the dual speed version; I had two separate governors which had to
be interchanged:

<https://www.radiomuseum.org/r/creed_teleprinter_7b.html#>

--
>^Ï^. Sn!pe, PTB, FIBS My pet rock Gordon just is.

Subject: Re: the early teletype
From: Charlie Gibbs
Newsgroups: comp.misc, alt.folklore.computers
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2024 20:59 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5
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Newsgroups: comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers
From: cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
Subject: Re: the early teletype
References: <673571b4$2$13$882e4bbb@reader.netnews.com>
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On 2024-11-18, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:

> The Teletype company wasn't very good at making cheap fragile stuff so the model
> 33 turned out be very reliable, leading to its use as the console of a decade of
> minicomputers. I spent a lot of time waiting for paper tapes to chug through the
> reader of a model 33 attached to a PDP-8.

A friend worked in a B1700 shop; their machine used a TTY33 for its console
(or, as Burroughs called it, "SPO", for "supervisor output").

Early models of the Univac 9400 used a model 35's print mechanism for
its console; it was paired with their own keyboard, which was much
nicer to use than a TTY.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

Subject: Re: the early teletype
From: Lawrence D'Oliv
Newsgroups: comp.misc, alt.folklore.computers
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2024 22:34 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6
Path: eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: ldo@nz.invalid (Lawrence D'Oliveiro)
Newsgroups: comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: the early teletype
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2024 22:34:31 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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On Mon, 18 Nov 2024 08:55:40 -0300, Wolfgang Agnes wrote:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
>
>> On 18 Nov 2024 09:01:47 -0000, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>
>>> It's dying out though because the modern digital modes have much
>>> better performance under marginal conditions.
>>
>> The more efficiently information is encoded, the more it resembles
>> random noise.
>
> Which theorem is that?

H(X) = -Σ p(x) log₂ p(x)

Subject: Re: the early teletype
From: Chris Ahlstrom
Newsgroups: comp.misc, alt.folklore.computers
Organization: None
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2024 13:24 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13
Path: eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: OFeem1987@teleworm.us (Chris Ahlstrom)
Newsgroups: comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: the early teletype
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2024 08:24:27 -0500
Organization: None
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David Wade wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:

> On 18/11/2024 14:11, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2024-11-15 21:23, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>> On 2024-11-15, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2024-11-15 00:11, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Damn, the things one remembers...
>>>>>
>>>>> They were in use at my time, somewhere, but I never saw one. Faxes were
>>>>> what they used.
>>>>>
>>>>> Did teletypes use phone lines, with an audio coupler? Or dedicated
>>>>> lines?
>>>>
>>>> Yes.
>>>>
>>>>   (both)
>>>
>>> Well put.  :-)
>>>
>>> Common dial-up services were Telex (Baudot, typically with Teletype
>>> model 32s, although a PPOE used a Siemens machine), and TWX
>>> (Teletypewriter Exchange), which ran ASCII, typically on Teletype
>>> model 33s.
>>
>> I suppose an operator had to type directly at the machine. Or, was there
>> a method to type at some kind of offline machine, then take over
>> something, like perforated tape?
>>
> Well if your machine had a punch you could prepare a tape off-line , and
> then send full speed when you had it ready and checked. In the UK Creed
> did produce "perforators", so a keyboard with a punch so I am sure
> Teletype did in the USA
>
> https://www.radiomuseum.org/r/creed_keyboard_perforator_type_44.html

In high school (Lockport IL around 1973) we used teletypes to write
BASIC code and then save it to paper tape.

Before that, our algebra teacher gave us "hollerith" cards and we'd
write code by filling in the little rectangles with a No. 2 pencil.
He'd load and run them for us and give us the output on paper.

Some wags would collect the paper tape dots and put them in the
room's heater, where they would spray out when teach turned on the
heat..

--
giraffiti:
Vandalism spray-painted very, very high.

Subject: Re: the early teletype
From: Chris Ahlstrom
Newsgroups: comp.misc, alt.folklore.computers
Organization: None
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2024 13:25 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6
Path: eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: OFeem1987@teleworm.us (Chris Ahlstrom)
Newsgroups: comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: the early teletype
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2024 08:25:34 -0500
Organization: None
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Dennis Boone wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:

> > Telex calls were charged by the minute and most Telex machines had paper
> > tape readers and punches, so what one usually did was to type up the
> > message on tape first, then make the call and run the tape through at
> > full speed.
>
> Later, say late 70s / early 80s, devices like HP 264x terminals with
> cassette data storage drives were used to pre-type and store messages,
> then send from tape. I saw this exact setup used in a government office
> in Saudi Arabia.

Sorta like my Vic 20!

--
The good thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from.
-- Andrew S. Tanenbaum

Subject: Re: the early teletype
From: Sn!pe
Newsgroups: comp.misc, alt.folklore.computers
Organization: Sn!peCo World Wide Wading Birds
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2024 13:41 UTC
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From: snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe)
Newsgroups: comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: the early teletype
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2024 13:41:41 +0000
Organization: Sn!peCo World Wide Wading Birds
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Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> wrote:

> In high school (Lockport IL around 1973) we used teletypes to write
> BASIC code and then save it to paper tape.
>
[...]
>
> Some wags would collect the paper tape dots and put them in the
> room's heater, where they would spray out when teach turned on the
> heat..
>

We would put those paper tape dots (chads) into somebody's umbrella
and refurl it. When they came to open the umbrella for use they'd get a
small snowstorm of chads on themselves.

--
>^Ï^. Sn!pe, PTB, FIBS My pet rock Gordon just is.

Subject: Re: the early teletype
From: Dennis Boone
Newsgroups: comp.misc, alt.folklore.computers
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2024 15:35 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
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Sender: Dennis Boone <drb@yagi.h-net.org>
From: drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone)
Subject: Re: the early teletype
Newsgroups: comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers
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> Sorta like my Vic 20!

Only with two tape drives and an order of magnitude more expensive.

De

Subject: Re: the early teletype
From: Charlie Gibbs
Newsgroups: comp.misc, alt.folklore.computers
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2024 19:30 UTC
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Newsgroups: comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers
From: cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
Subject: Re: the early teletype
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On 2024-11-19, Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> wrote:

> In high school (Lockport IL around 1973) we used teletypes to write
> BASIC code and then save it to paper tape.
>
> Before that, our algebra teacher gave us "hollerith" cards and we'd
> write code by filling in the little rectangles with a No. 2 pencil.
> He'd load and run them for us and give us the output on paper.

Ah, mark sense cards.

> Some wags would collect the paper tape dots and put them in the
> room's heater, where they would spray out when teach turned on the
> heat..

I started in a card-only shop. Our punch was kept very busy;
its chad drawer measured about 2 feet by 2 feet by 5 inches,
and it had to be emptied regularly. When a cow orker got married
we dumped a bunch of chad down the heater vents in his car; when
he sold the car a year later chad would still fly out out the
vents when he turned the heater on.

That 80-column card chad was nasty - the sharp corners made it
stick to everything. You wouldn't want to get it near your eyes.
At least it wasn't oiled, like paper tape, so it wouldn't leave
stains on anything it landed on.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

Subject: Re: the early teletype
From: Chris Ahlstrom
Newsgroups: comp.misc, alt.folklore.computers
Organization: None
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2024 12:07 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
Path: eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: OFeem1987@teleworm.us (Chris Ahlstrom)
Newsgroups: comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: the early teletype
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2024 07:07:25 -0500
Organization: None
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Dennis Boone wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:

> > Sorta like my Vic 20!
>
> Only with two tape drives and an order of magnitude more expensive.

I bought a modem card for the Vic 20. I'd plug in the modem, load
the terminal program from cassette, dial the university computer with
the rotary dial, wait for an answer, plug the RJ plug into the modem,
and then read the university ARPAnet feed, 24 chars/line or somesuch, on
a black-and-white teevee.

Ah, the days when you could buy computer equipment from a toy store.

--
A gambler's biggest thrill is winning a bet.
His next biggest thrill is losing a bet.

Subject: Re: the early teletype
From: Scott Dorsey
Newsgroups: comp.misc, alt.folklore.computers
Organization: Former users of Netcom shell (1989-2000)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2024 11:13 UTC
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From: kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey)
Newsgroups: comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: the early teletype
Date: 23 Nov 2024 11:13:32 -0000
Organization: Former users of Netcom shell (1989-2000)
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In article <vhf1ta$165g7$2@dont-email.me>,
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>On 18 Nov 2024 09:01:47 -0000, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
>> It's dying out though because the modern digital modes have much better
>> performance under marginal conditions.
>
>The more efficiently information is encoded, the more it resembles random
>noise.

Yes, and I want some of the least efficient encodings for HF, because I want
the highest amount of data to be recovered under poor S/N conditions.
Redundancy is your friend!
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Subject: Re: the early teletype
From: Scott Dorsey
Newsgroups: comp.misc, alt.folklore.computers
Organization: Former users of Netcom shell (1989-2000)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2024 11:15 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4
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From: kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey)
Newsgroups: comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: the early teletype
Date: 23 Nov 2024 11:15:09 -0000
Organization: Former users of Netcom shell (1989-2000)
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Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>I suppose an operator had to type directly at the machine. Or, was there
>a method to type at some kind of offline machine, then take over
>something, like perforated tape?

Telex and TWX were different but I remember that they both allowed offline
message preparation on paper tape and then later in-memory on a smart terminal.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Subject: Re: the early teletype
From: Scott Dorsey
Newsgroups: comp.misc, alt.folklore.computers
Organization: Former users of Netcom shell (1989-2000)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2024 11:18 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4
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From: kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey)
Newsgroups: comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: the early teletype
Date: 23 Nov 2024 11:18:03 -0000
Organization: Former users of Netcom shell (1989-2000)
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Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> wrote:
>In high school (Lockport IL around 1973) we used teletypes to write
>BASIC code and then save it to paper tape.
>
>Before that, our algebra teacher gave us "hollerith" cards and we'd
>write code by filling in the little rectangles with a No. 2 pencil.
>He'd load and run them for us and give us the output on paper.

HP Educational Basic on an HP100 or HP2100 machine?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Subject: Re: the early teletype
From: Charlie Gibbs
Newsgroups: comp.misc, alt.folklore.computers
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2024 19:16 UTC
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Newsgroups: comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers
From: cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
Subject: Re: the early teletype
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On 2024-11-23, Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:

> Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>> I suppose an operator had to type directly at the machine. Or, was
>> there a method to type at some kind of offline machine, then take
>> over something, like perforated tape?
>
> Telex and TWX were different but I remember that they both allowed
> offline message preparation on paper tape and then later in-memory
> on a smart terminal.

Telex was Baudot, TWX was ASCII. The typical Teletype hardware models
were 32ASR and 33ASR respectively.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

Subject: Re: the early teletype
From: John Levine
Newsgroups: comp.misc, alt.folklore.computers
Organization: Taughannock Networks
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2024 21:37 UTC
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From: johnl@taugh.com (John Levine)
Newsgroups: comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: the early teletype
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2024 21:37:38 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Taughannock Networks
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According to Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>:
>> Telex and TWX were different but I remember that they both allowed
>> offline message preparation on paper tape and then later in-memory
>> on a smart terminal.
>
>Telex was Baudot, TWX was ASCII. The typical Teletype hardware models
>were 32ASR and 33ASR respectively.

Telex was Western Union, TWX was AT&T. There were early Baudot TWX machines
starting in 1931. Baudot TWX used manual operators until 1962 when they cut over
all 60,000 TWX subscribers to dial service over the Labor Day weekend and
assigned them regular POTS numbers. ASCII TWX with x10 area codes was introduced
in 1963.

AT&T sold TWX to Western Union in 1969 who didn't do a very good job of
integrating it with Telex, and the remains of Telex were sold back to
AT&T in 1990.

--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

Subject: Re: the early teletype
From: Lawrence D'Oliv
Newsgroups: comp.misc, alt.folklore.computers
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2024 22:16 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5
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From: ldo@nz.invalid (Lawrence D'Oliveiro)
Newsgroups: comp.misc,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: the early teletype
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On 23 Nov 2024 11:13:32 -0000, Scott Dorsey wrote:

> In article <vhf1ta$165g7$2@dont-email.me>,
> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>On 18 Nov 2024 09:01:47 -0000, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>
>>> It's dying out though because the modern digital modes have much
>>> better performance under marginal conditions.
>>
>>The more efficiently information is encoded, the more it resembles
>>random noise.
>
> Yes, and I want some of the least efficient encodings for HF, because I
> want the highest amount of data to be recovered under poor S/N
> conditions. Redundancy is your friend!

There are ways to add redundancy in an optimal fashion, cf Reed-Solomon
codes. The result still looks statistically like noise.

According to John Watkinson, Reed-Solomon codes are theoretically optimum
for this purpose
<https://www.theregister.com/2013/07/18/data_storage_technology/?page=3>.

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