On Fri, 31 May 2024 14:26:07 -0700, HenHanna wrote:

> anyone (else) using Sumatra PDF viewer?

I prefer Okular. It’s a general-purpose document viewer, with a whole host
of back-ends for formats like PDF, DJVU, EPUB, CBZ, PostScript ... even
CHM.

Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> HenHanna wrote:
>
>> anyone (else) using Sumatra PDF viewer?
yes, but didn't see your O/P.
> I prefer Okular. It’s a general-purpose document viewer, with a whole host
> of back-ends for formats like PDF, DJVU, EPUB, CBZ, PostScript ... even
> CHM.
I think the only filetype on your list that sumatra doesn't handle is
postscript.

On Sat, 1 Jun 2024 09:49:03 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> I prefer Okular. It’s a general-purpose document viewer, with a whole
>> host of back-ends for formats like PDF, DJVU, EPUB, CBZ, PostScript ...
>> even CHM.
>
> I think the only filetype on your list that sumatra doesn't handle is
> postscript.

Okular does other formats as well.

On 5/31/2024 5:28 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Fri, 31 May 2024 14:26:07 -0700, HenHanna wrote:
>
>> anyone (else) using Sumatra PDF viewer?
>
> I prefer Okular. It’s a general-purpose document viewer, with a whole host
> of back-ends for formats like PDF, DJVU, EPUB, CBZ, PostScript ... even
> CHM.

Is there a viewer for .doc files?

On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 14:42:22 -0700, HenHanna wrote:

> Is there a viewer for .doc files?

..doc is an extension often used for text files, e.g.
<https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inkscape/-/tree/master/src/3rdparty/adaptagrams/libavoid/doc?ref_type=heads>.

In article <v45aob$3rcpa$4@dont-email.me>,
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 14:42:22 -0700, HenHanna wrote:
>
>> Is there a viewer for .doc files?
>
>.doc is an extension often used for text files, e.g.
><https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inkscape/-/tree/master/src/3rdparty/adaptagrams/libavoid/doc?ref_type=heads>.

No, sadly ".doc" files are in an older Word format, and people often send
them when they think they are sending text files... and they wind up
sending an awful lot of metadata that they might not want to be sending
(like the undo history). LibreOffice will read Word files and let you
export to text, pdf, or rtf formats which are safe to share.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 10/06/24 09:09, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> In article <v45aob$3rcpa$4@dont-email.me>, Lawrence D'Oliveiro
> <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>> On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 14:42:22 -0700, HenHanna wrote:
>>
>>> Is there a viewer for .doc files?
>>
>> .doc is an extension often used for text files, e.g.
>> <https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inkscape/-/tree/master/src/3rdparty/adaptagrams/libavoid/doc?ref_type=heads>.

Traditionally .doc was reserved for documentation files, and the format
was plain text. The meaning changed because of Microsoft's habitual
contempt for standards.

> No, sadly ".doc" files are in an older Word format, and people often
> send them when they think they are sending text files... and they
> wind up sending an awful lot of metadata that they might not want to
> be sending (like the undo history). LibreOffice will read Word files
> and let you export to text, pdf, or rtf formats which are safe to
> share.

At our university we once had a Vice-Chancellor who believed in sending
out "all staff" memos by e-mail in MS-Word format. I think he composed
them by taking an existing MS-Word file and altering the contents. He
apparently didn't know about the "revision history" feature, so he ended
up leaking a lot of confidential documents.

At the time I didn't have a Windows computer, so all the metadata
appeared to me as plain text. I could have read the intended content
with OpenOffice, but one doesn't normally set up a mail program to
invoke a word processor.

--
Peter Moylan peter@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On 6/9/2024 3:42 PM, HenHanna wrote:
>
> On 5/31/2024 5:28 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>> On Fri, 31 May 2024 14:26:07 -0700, HenHanna wrote:
>>
>>> anyone (else) using Sumatra PDF viewer?
>>
>> I prefer Okular. It’s a general-purpose document viewer, with a whole
>> host
>> of back-ends for formats like PDF, DJVU, EPUB, CBZ, PostScript ... even
>> CHM.
>
>
> Is there a viewer for  .doc   files?
Not exactly. However, there is OpenOffice and another (name escapes me
at the moment) that are 1) free and 2) provided for virtually all
Microsoft formats plus open ones that subsume the M$ formats. You can
use these packages as viewers, composers, and editors. In fact, you can
edit and save old format documents in either old or new formats. A small
victory for the open software folks.
I ran into a need for this stuff since idiots at our local zoo were
sending out .doc files via email to volunteers such as I (or is that
me?). Given that many of these volunteers where elderly and not willing
or able to plunk down a few hundred dollars these heads-up bulletins
didn't work very well. I told the volunteers about the free software and
the staff to learn how to use the tools provided and produce pdf files.
If I sound a little upset with M$ to you and off topic, your hearings
good. I remember a few decades ago that simultaneously: 1) DARPA our
declared all-advanced research funder in the USA required that every
proposals to them be prepared using, in part, M$ tools while 2) at the
same time the Justice Department was investigating and suing M$ for
being a monopoly!
--
Jeff Barnett

On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 21:46:00 -0600, Jeff Barnett wrote:

> However, there is OpenOffice ...

Nobody should be bothering with OpenOffice any more. Use LibreOffice
instead.

On 10/06/24 13:46, Jeff Barnett wrote:
> On 6/9/2024 3:42 PM, HenHanna wrote:

>> Is there a viewer for .doc files?
>
> Not exactly. However, there is OpenOffice and another (name escapes
> me at the moment) that are 1) free and 2) provided for virtually all
> Microsoft formats plus open ones that subsume the M$ formats. You can
> use these packages as viewers, composers, and editors. In fact, you
> can edit and save old format documents in either old or new formats.
> A small victory for the open software folks.

And can even handle Microsoft formats that Microsoft no longer supports.
This solves a legal problem, in countries that requires companies to
keep business records for a longer time than they can be read with M$
software.

> If I sound a little upset with M$ to you and off topic, your
> hearings good. I remember a few decades ago that simultaneously: 1)
> DARPA our declared all-advanced research funder in the USA required
> that every proposals to them be prepared using, in part, M$ tools
> while 2) at the same time the Justice Department was investigating
> and suing M$ for being a monopoly!

Years ago I submitted a research paper to a conference that had suddenly
adopted a rule that all submissions must be in MS-Word format. What the
conference organisers didn't realise was that the number of lines per
page depended on non-portable local conditions. (I think it depended on
which printer was installed.) Submissions were limited to 4 pages. When
the conference proceedings were published, about half the papers turned
out to have a length of 4 pages plus 2 lines.

(For those who don't know, PDF doesn't have this problem.)

--
Peter Moylan peter@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On 6/9/2024 10:12 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 21:46:00 -0600, Jeff Barnett wrote:
>
>> However, there is OpenOffice ...
>
> Nobody should be bothering with OpenOffice any more. Use LibreOffice
> instead.

That was the other one with the name I couldn't dredge up. I hear it's a
better product (performance and maintenance) and will try it when we
build new computers fairly soon. Still using 10 yr old Win 7 machine
that's fast enough for Photo Shop and Games but software needs serious
updating.
--
Jeff Barnett

On 6/9/2024 11:36 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 10/06/24 13:46, Jeff Barnett wrote:
>> On 6/9/2024 3:42 PM, HenHanna wrote:
>
>>> Is there a viewer for  .doc   files?
>>
>> Not exactly. However, there is OpenOffice and another (name escapes
>> me at the moment) that are 1) free and 2) provided for virtually all
>> Microsoft formats plus open ones that subsume the M$ formats. You can
>> use these packages as viewers, composers, and editors. In fact, you
>> can edit and save old format documents in either old or new formats.
>> A small victory for the open software folks.
>
> And can even handle Microsoft formats that Microsoft no longer supports.
> This solves a legal problem, in countries that requires companies to
> keep business records for a longer time than they can be read with M$
> software.
I hadn't thought of that - I retired years ago and haven't dealt with
some of the fine parts of reality.
>> If I sound a little upset with M$ to you and off topic, your
>> hearings good. I remember a few decades ago that simultaneously: 1)
>> DARPA our declared all-advanced research funder in the USA required
>> that every proposals to them be prepared using, in part, M$ tools
>> while 2) at the same time the Justice Department was investigating
>> and suing M$ for being a monopoly!
>
> Years ago I submitted a research paper to a conference that had suddenly
> adopted a rule that all submissions must be in MS-Word format. What the
> conference organisers didn't realise was that the number of lines per
> page depended on non-portable local conditions. (I think it depended on
> which printer was installed.) Submissions were limited to 4 pages. When
> the conference proceedings were published, about half the papers turned
> out to have a length of 4 pages plus 2 lines.
>
> (For those who don't know, PDF doesn't have this problem.)
Most conferences not only demand LaTeX submissions, their sponsoring
organizations provide class/format files that deal with matters of
appearance and typesetting as well as producing pdf while you are
developing your contribution at office or home; they also are able to
use different back ends when producing proceedings or other publications
from the originals. What improvements in all this in the last 30-40 years!
--
Jeff Barnett

On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 15:36:42 +1000, Peter Moylan wrote:

> Years ago I submitted a research paper to a conference that had suddenly
> adopted a rule that all submissions must be in MS-Word format. What the
> conference organisers didn't realise was that the number of lines per
> page depended on non-portable local conditions. (I think it depended on
> which printer was installed.) Submissions were limited to 4 pages. When
> the conference proceedings were published, about half the papers turned
> out to have a length of 4 pages plus 2 lines.

Long-standing problem with Microsoft Office. Office diehards often
complain that LibreOffice isn’t “100%-compatible” because when they try
moving documents between the two, the layout changes in some unexpected
way. What they don’t realize is that the Microsoft product isn’t
consistent with itself, and is quite capable of screwing up layouts on its
own.

On 6/10/2024 1:18 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 15:36:42 +1000, Peter Moylan wrote:
>
>> Years ago I submitted a research paper to a conference that had suddenly
>> adopted a rule that all submissions must be in MS-Word format. What the
>> conference organisers didn't realise was that the number of lines per
>> page depended on non-portable local conditions. (I think it depended on
>> which printer was installed.) Submissions were limited to 4 pages. When
>> the conference proceedings were published, about half the papers turned
>> out to have a length of 4 pages plus 2 lines.
>
> Long-standing problem with Microsoft Office. Office diehards often
> complain that LibreOffice isn’t “100%-compatible” because when they try
> moving documents between the two, the layout changes in some unexpected
> way. What they don’t realize is that the Microsoft product isn’t
> consistent with itself, and is quite capable of screwing up layouts on its
> own.
Amen.
--
Jeff Barnett

In article <v469c7$8j09$1@dont-email.me>, Lawrence D'Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 15:36:42 +1000, Peter Moylan wrote:

> > Years ago I submitted a research paper to a conference that had
> > suddenly adopted a rule that all submissions must be in MS-Word format.
> > What the conference organisers didn't realise was that the number of
> > lines per page depended on non-portable local conditions. (I think it
> > depended on which printer was installed.) Submissions were limited to 4
> > pages. When the conference proceedings were published, about half the
> > papers turned out to have a length of 4 pages plus 2 lines.

> Long-standing problem with Microsoft Office. Office diehards often
> complain that LibreOffice isn‘t ”100%-compatible• because when they try
> moving documents between the two, the layout changes in some unexpected
> way. What they don‘t realize is that the Microsoft product isn‘t
> consistent with itself, and is quite capable of screwing up layouts on
> its own.

Indeed so, been there, bought the T-Shirt

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té²
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

In article <5b6eb66a57charles@candehope.me.uk>,
charles <charles@candehope.me.uk> wrote:
>In article <v469c7$8j09$1@dont-email.me>, Lawrence D'Oliveiro
><ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>> On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 15:36:42 +1000, Peter Moylan wrote:
>
>> > Years ago I submitted a research paper to a conference that had
>> > suddenly adopted a rule that all submissions must be in MS-Word format.
>> > What the conference organisers didn't realise was that the number of
>> > lines per page depended on non-portable local conditions. (I think it
>> > depended on which printer was installed.) Submissions were limited to 4
>> > pages. When the conference proceedings were published, about half the
>> > papers turned out to have a length of 4 pages plus 2 lines.
>
>> Long-standing problem with Microsoft Office. Office diehards often
>> complain that LibreOffice isn�t �100%-compatible� because when they try
>> moving documents between the two, the layout changes in some unexpected
>> way. What they don�t realize is that the Microsoft product isn�t
>> consistent with itself, and is quite capable of screwing up layouts on
>> its own.
>
>Indeed so, been there, bought the T-Shirt

With conference papers the issue is most often A4 vs. American Letter paper
sizes. Word handles this particularly badly.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> wrote at 00:26 this Monday (GMT):
> On 10/06/24 09:09, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>> In article <v45aob$3rcpa$4@dont-email.me>, Lawrence D'Oliveiro
>> <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 14:42:22 -0700, HenHanna wrote:
>>>
>>>> Is there a viewer for .doc files?
>>>
>>> .doc is an extension often used for text files, e.g.
>>> <https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inkscape/-/tree/master/src/3rdparty/adaptagrams/libavoid/doc?ref_type=heads>.
>
> Traditionally .doc was reserved for documentation files, and the format
> was plain text. The meaning changed because of Microsoft's habitual
> contempt for standards.
>
>> No, sadly ".doc" files are in an older Word format, and people often
>> send them when they think they are sending text files... and they
>> wind up sending an awful lot of metadata that they might not want to
>> be sending (like the undo history). LibreOffice will read Word files
>> and let you export to text, pdf, or rtf formats which are safe to
>> share.
>
> At our university we once had a Vice-Chancellor who believed in sending
> out "all staff" memos by e-mail in MS-Word format. I think he composed
> them by taking an existing MS-Word file and altering the contents. He
> apparently didn't know about the "revision history" feature, so he ended
> up leaking a lot of confidential documents.
>
> At the time I didn't have a Windows computer, so all the metadata
> appeared to me as plain text. I could have read the intended content
> with OpenOffice, but one doesn't normally set up a mail program to
> invoke a word processor.

And they made it even more confusing by introducing .docx too.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

On Tue, 11 Jun 2024 02:40:04 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:

> And they made it even more confusing by introducing .docx too.

That’s a whole new format, which Microsoft has tried to railroad through
as some kind of “international standard” (ISO 29500). Except the
specification document is so opaque and incomprehensible, nobody can be
sure when they’ve implemented it properly or not. So “compatibility” falls
back to meaning “compatible with Microsoft Office”, not “conforming to an
official spec”.

Stick to ODF, aka ISO 26300. It’s only a small fraction of the complexity,
and much easier to get right.