On Fri, 23 Aug 2024 08:36:02 +1200, dn wrote:

> On 23/08/24 07:49, rbowman via Python-list wrote:
>> On Thu, 22 Aug 2024 10:40:52 -0700, Paul Rubin wrote:
>>
>>> The Pico uses MicroPython which is stuck on an old version of Python,
>>> unfortunately.
>
> How did this enter the conversation/thread?
>
> Paul's 'contribution' does not even appear on the Archive...

I'm probably guilty. I mentioned in passing the older protocols like
finger could even be implemented on something like the Pico W with
MicroPython.

I am confused by the cross-over to Python-list. I only read/post to
comp.lang.python. Is that echoed to Python-list or vice versa?

>> I haven't worked with CircuitPython lately and don't know if it has
>> pulled in later features.
>
> Have you (gentle reader) used both and feel able to offer a comparison -
> when to prefer one over the other?

I've only used CircuitPython on the Adafruit Playground Express.

https://circuitpython.org/board/circuitplayground_express/

and MicroPython on the Pico W. Since then Adafruit has expanded their
collection of boards and support them with CircuitPython.

One difference that makes them hard to compare is the Express has quite a
few on-board sensors like the Arduino Nano Sense 33, and interfaces to
them are baked into CircuitPython.

The Pico W has a wealth of I/O most doubling as I2C, PWM, or A/D with only
a onboard LED for the mandatory 'hello world' blink code. MicroPython is
more generic and you may have to import modules for specific external
devices like the SSD1306 OLED display. That's easily done with Thonny or
pipkin.

As far as core Python I'd say they're similar. MicroPython is more generic
and may require more work to set up where Adafruit can match the boards
they have developed.

As I said it's been a while but MicroPython has the _threading module so
you can utilize both cores of the RP2040. Adafruit's new Feather has a
RP2040 and like the Pico W assumes you'll be using the PIO to externals
rather than anything onboard so CircuitPython probably has it.

https://www.adafruit.com/product/4884

From the horse's mouth:

"There is great C/C++ support, unofficial (but really good) Arduino
support, an official MicroPython port, and a CircuitPython port! We of
course recommend CircuitPython because we think it's the easiest way to
get started and it has support with most of our drivers, displays,
sensors, and more, supported out of the box so you can follow along with
our CircuitPython projects and tutorials."

I don't know if Adafruit has a RP2350 board yet but they say CircuitPython
will be even happier on the Pico 2.

https://www.adafruit.com/product/6006

For better or worse there are a lot more choices now than fiddling around
with the Arduino Uno back in the day.

On 23 Aug 2024 03:43:15 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> I am confused by the cross-over to Python-list. I only read/post to
> comp.lang.python. Is that echoed to Python-list or vice versa?

This has been happening, without asking our permission, for years.

On 23/08/24 15:43, rbowman via Python-list wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Aug 2024 08:36:02 +1200, dn wrote:
>> On 23/08/24 07:49, rbowman via Python-list wrote:
>>> On Thu, 22 Aug 2024 10:40:52 -0700, Paul Rubin wrote:
>>>
>>>> The Pico uses MicroPython which is stuck on an old version of Python,
>>>> unfortunately.
>>
>> How did this enter the conversation/thread?
>>
>> Paul's 'contribution' does not even appear on the Archive...
>
> I'm probably guilty. I mentioned in passing the older protocols like
> finger could even be implemented on something like the Pico W with
> MicroPython.

The question arose because his message doesn't appear either in the
conversation/email thread 'here', nor on the Archive. Perhaps not sent
to the list?

> I am confused by the cross-over to Python-list. I only read/post to
> comp.lang.python. Is that echoed to Python-list or vice versa?

As I understand it, posts to 'the list' may be made at comp.lang.python
or by email. Once on the server, messages are reflected back to both.
Thus, Thunderbird is not set-up to use the newsgroup and keeps
complaining at me when it's asked to reply to both. So, all
contributions (from me) enter the server via email.

>>> I haven't worked with CircuitPython lately and don't know if it has
>>> pulled in later features.
>>
>> Have you (gentle reader) used both and feel able to offer a comparison -
>> when to prefer one over the other?
>
> I've only used CircuitPython on the Adafruit Playground Express.
> https://circuitpython.org/board/circuitplayground_express/
> and MicroPython on the Pico W. Since then Adafruit has expanded their
> collection of boards and support them with CircuitPython.
>
> One difference that makes them hard to compare is the Express has quite a
> few on-board sensors like the Arduino Nano Sense 33, and interfaces to
> them are baked into CircuitPython.
>
> The Pico W has a wealth of I/O most doubling as I2C, PWM, or A/D with only
> a onboard LED for the mandatory 'hello world' blink code. MicroPython is
> more generic and you may have to import modules for specific external
> devices like the SSD1306 OLED display. That's easily done with Thonny or
> pipkin.

Adding a display to the Pico-W is my next project... After that, gyros
(am thinking it may not go so well, on balance... hah!).

The Pico-W impresses. Its built-in Wi-Fi/Bluetooth capability makes life
a lot easier (inside building use).

Apart from the earlier comment, my biggest frustration has come from the
lack of facilities in Thonny compared with PyCharm - but will pick-up
skills there, no doubt.

Conversely, (to having a separate radio-chip) I think I prefer the idea
of being able to connect the Pico to whichever sensor(s) is/are
actually-required. However, this is applied use - not learning or 'playing'.

> As far as core Python I'd say they're similar. MicroPython is more generic
> and may require more work to set up where Adafruit can match the boards
> they have developed.
>
> As I said it's been a while but MicroPython has the _threading module so
> you can utilize both cores of the RP2040. Adafruit's new Feather has a
> RP2040 and like the Pico W assumes you'll be using the PIO to externals
> rather than anything onboard so CircuitPython probably has it.
>
> https://www.adafruit.com/product/4884
>
> From the horse's mouth:
>
> "There is great C/C++ support, unofficial (but really good) Arduino
> support, an official MicroPython port, and a CircuitPython port! We of
> course recommend CircuitPython because we think it's the easiest way to
> get started and it has support with most of our drivers, displays,
> sensors, and more, supported out of the box so you can follow along with
> our CircuitPython projects and tutorials."

Whilst agreeing with the "easiest way to get started" claim, it probably
also leads to the assumption that it will (later) be easier to run out
of capability. Hence, that MicroPython would be the better professional
option - assuming one already knows Python.

Yes, a degree of 'comparing apples with oranges' - and a
continually-moving target!

> I don't know if Adafruit has a RP2350 board yet but they say CircuitPython
> will be even happier on the Pico 2.
> https://www.adafruit.com/product/6006

No, out in the real-world, the Pico 2 is still vaporware.

> For better or worse there are a lot more choices now than fiddling around
> with the Arduino Uno back in the day.

True.
Hence the question.
Thanks for the comments!

--
Regards,
=dn

On Fri, 23 Aug 2024 16:23:42 +1200, dn wrote:

> Adding a display to the Pico-W is my next project... After that, gyros
> (am thinking it may not go so well, on balance... hah!).

https://toptechboy.com/two-axis-tilt-meter-displaying-pitch-and-roll-
using-an-mpu6050-on-the-raspberry-pi-pico-w/

You might have to go back a lesson or two for the lead up. As he generally
says in the intro most of what he uses is from the Sunfounder Kepler kit.
It has a standard LCD display but he suggested buying the OLED separately
and used it for Lissajous patterns and other fancier stuff.

It's not a bad series although he can be long-winded and his Python style
definitely isn't PEP8 friendly.

https://toptechboy.com/

He switched to the Arduino Uno R4 after the IR controller/NeoPixel Pico
project and I don't know if he intends to go back to the Pico. He uses
Thonny but I use the MicroPython extension in VS Code. Lately I've been
using Code for everything. Mostly I work on Linux boxes but it's all the
same on Windows. There is a PlatformIO extension that works with Arduino
and other boards. PyLance upsets some because it's a MS product but it
works well too. I've used PyCharm and like it but I also work on C, .NET,
Angular, and other projects and Code gives me a uniform IDE.

On Thu, 22 Aug 2024 19:56:54 -0700, Paul Rubin wrote:

> With MicroPython on the Pico, you use some command line utility to
> transfer files instead, but it is no big deal.

Loading the UF2 is easy.

https://www.raspberrypi.com/documentation/microcontrollers/
micropython.html

I use VS Code with the MicroPython extension so when the board is plugged
in it shows up as ttyACM0 or COM something I think on Windows. If you need
a package for a peripheral the file structure on the actually device shows
up so you can copy it to the lib directory.

https://pypi.org/project/pipkin/

pipkin is the command line utility. Thonny isn't my favorite IDE but it
does make life easy:

https://projects.raspberrypi.org/en/projects/getting-started-with-the-
pico/2

On 20.08.2024 um 23:26 Uhr Daniel wrote:

> New here. I've perused some posts and haven't seen a posting FAQ for
> this NG. I'm learning python right now to realize some hobby goals I
> have regarding some smolnet services. What are the NG standards on
> pasting code in messages? Do yall prefer I post a pastebin link if
> it's over a certain number of lines? I know this isn't IRC - just
> asking.

Welcome!

Pastebin and other stuff has the disadvantage that the content might be
removed later.

What about pasting it under your actual message if it is really too
long?

--
kind regards
Marco

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
> On 23 Aug 2024 03:43:15 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>> I am confused by the cross-over to Python-list. I only read/post to
>> comp.lang.python. Is that echoed to Python-list or vice versa?
>
> This has been happening, without asking our permission, for years.

The comp.lang.python newsgroup and the Python-list mailing list
are bidirectionally gatewayed. Both are public. Why is that a
problem for you? Whose permission do you think is needed?

https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com
void Void(void) { Void(); } /* The recursive call of the void */

If everyone will pardon my curiosity, who and what purposes are these
smaller environments for and do many people use them?

I mean the price of a typical minimal laptop is not a big deal today. So are
these for some sort of embedded uses?

I read about them ages ago but wonder ...

-----Original Message-----
From: Python-list <python-list-bounces+avi.e.gross=gmail.com@python.org> On
Behalf Of rbowman via Python-list
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2024 1:22 AM
To: python-list@python.org
Subject: Re: new here

On Fri, 23 Aug 2024 16:23:42 +1200, dn wrote:

> Adding a display to the Pico-W is my next project... After that, gyros
> (am thinking it may not go so well, on balance... hah!).

https://toptechboy.com/two-axis-tilt-meter-displaying-pitch-and-roll-
using-an-mpu6050-on-the-raspberry-pi-pico-w/

You might have to go back a lesson or two for the lead up. As he generally
says in the intro most of what he uses is from the Sunfounder Kepler kit.
It has a standard LCD display but he suggested buying the OLED separately
and used it for Lissajous patterns and other fancier stuff.

It's not a bad series although he can be long-winded and his Python style
definitely isn't PEP8 friendly.

https://toptechboy.com/

He switched to the Arduino Uno R4 after the IR controller/NeoPixel Pico
project and I don't know if he intends to go back to the Pico. He uses
Thonny but I use the MicroPython extension in VS Code. Lately I've been
using Code for everything. Mostly I work on Linux boxes but it's all the
same on Windows. There is a PlatformIO extension that works with Arduino
and other boards. PyLance upsets some because it's a MS product but it
works well too. I've used PyCharm and like it but I also work on C, .NET,
Angular, and other projects and Code gives me a uniform IDE.
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

It appears there were some delays in the email/servers.
Thanks for this (and earlier) ideas and advice!

On 23/08/24 17:38, rbowman via Python-list wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Aug 2024 19:56:54 -0700, Paul Rubin wrote:
>
>> With MicroPython on the Pico, you use some command line utility to
>> transfer files instead, but it is no big deal.
>
> Loading the UF2 is easy.
>
> https://www.raspberrypi.com/documentation/microcontrollers/
> micropython.html
>
> I use VS Code with the MicroPython extension so when the board is plugged
> in it shows up as ttyACM0 or COM something I think on Windows. If you need
> a package for a peripheral the file structure on the actually device shows
> up so you can copy it to the lib directory.
>
> https://pypi.org/project/pipkin/
>
> pipkin is the command line utility. Thonny isn't my favorite IDE but it
> does make life easy:
>
> https://projects.raspberrypi.org/en/projects/getting-started-with-the-
> pico/2

--
Regards,
=dn

On 2024-08-26 02:29, AVI GROSS via Python-list wrote:
> If everyone will pardon my curiosity, who and what purposes are these
> smaller environments for and do many people use them?
>
> I mean the price of a typical minimal laptop is not a big deal today. So are
> these for some sort of embedded uses?
>
> I read about them ages ago but wonder ...
>
A Raspberry Pi Pico W costs less than £5, is a lot smaller, and has a
much lower power consumption than a laptop, so if it's good enough for
the purpose (embedded controller), why use a laptop? That's overkill!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Python-list <python-list-bounces+avi.e.gross=gmail.com@python.org> On
> Behalf Of rbowman via Python-list
> Sent: Friday, August 23, 2024 1:22 AM
> To: python-list@python.org
> Subject: Re: new here
>
> On Fri, 23 Aug 2024 16:23:42 +1200, dn wrote:
>
>> Adding a display to the Pico-W is my next project... After that, gyros
>> (am thinking it may not go so well, on balance... hah!).
>
> https://toptechboy.com/two-axis-tilt-meter-displaying-pitch-and-roll-" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://toptechboy.com/two-axis-tilt-meter-displaying-pitch-and-roll-
> using-an-mpu6050-on-the-raspberry-pi-pico-w/
>
> You might have to go back a lesson or two for the lead up. As he generally
> says in the intro most of what he uses is from the Sunfounder Kepler kit.
> It has a standard LCD display but he suggested buying the OLED separately
> and used it for Lissajous patterns and other fancier stuff.
>
> It's not a bad series although he can be long-winded and his Python style
> definitely isn't PEP8 friendly.
>
> https://toptechboy.com/
>
> He switched to the Arduino Uno R4 after the IR controller/NeoPixel Pico
> project and I don't know if he intends to go back to the Pico. He uses
> Thonny but I use the MicroPython extension in VS Code. Lately I've been
> using Code for everything. Mostly I work on Linux boxes but it's all the
> same on Windows. There is a PlatformIO extension that works with Arduino
> and other boards. PyLance upsets some because it's a MS product but it
> works well too. I've used PyCharm and like it but I also work on C, .NET,
> Angular, and other projects and Code gives me a uniform IDE.

On Sun, 25 Aug 2024 21:29:30 -0400, avi.e.gross wrote:

> If everyone will pardon my curiosity, who and what purposes are these
> smaller environments for and do many people use them?
>
> I mean the price of a typical minimal laptop is not a big deal today. So
> are these for some sort of embedded uses?
>
> I read about them ages ago but wonder ...

Typically they are used for I/O with the physical world. Some, like the
Arduino Nano Sense, have a number of sensors on the board including a 9
axis inertial, temperature, humidity, barometric, microphone, light
intensity, and color sensors. MIT chose this for their TinyML course
because it was one-stop shopping. Using TinyML, a really cut down version
of TensorFlow, gesture, wake word, image recognition, and other tasks were
move entirely to the edge device.

Others, like the Pico series, bring out the I/O pins but have little
onboard. Many pins are multi-purpose and are used for SPI or I2C
protocols, PWM, A/D measurements, and plain vanilla digital.

The Raspberry Pi series lives in both worlds. Particularly with the new Pi
5, it's usable as a desktop Linux system, if somewhat limited, while
bringing out the PIO pins.

It's really a different world than a typical laptop. Years (decades?) ago
you could subvert the parallel port controller to provide digital I/O but
who has seen a parallel port lately?

There are many families and devices available that are used for any number
of projects that need to interact with the real world. The earliest
variants were usually programmed in assembler since 2k of EPROM and 128
bytes of RAM was typical. As they improved C was sued. Now there's enough
flash and SRAM to support MicroPython or CircuitPython and they are fast
enough for most purposes. There are specialized drivers but if you know
Python the bulk of the logic will be very familiar.

For example I have a desktop Python app that pulls weather data from
NOAA's web API. The Pico W has Wifi, so if I wanted to compare NOAA's
temperature, humidity, and barometric pressure to the values I read from a
local sensor, the API requests and parsing the JSON reply would be almost
identical to the desktop code. Conversely I could use the Pico W as a web
server to make its sensor reading available.

Thank you Michael. Embedded Controllers are something I personally have never had to deal with, except as an inviable part of things I use.

But, yes, things like that when cheap enough, make plenty of sense.

-----Original Message-----
From: Python-list <python-list-bounces+avi.e.gross=gmail.com@python.org> On Behalf Of MRAB via Python-list
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2024 10:05 PM
To: python-list@python.org
Subject: Re: new here

On 2024-08-26 02:29, AVI GROSS via Python-list wrote:
> If everyone will pardon my curiosity, who and what purposes are these
> smaller environments for and do many people use them?
>
> I mean the price of a typical minimal laptop is not a big deal today. So are
> these for some sort of embedded uses?
>
> I read about them ages ago but wonder ...
>
A Raspberry Pi Pico W costs less than £5, is a lot smaller, and has a
much lower power consumption than a laptop, so if it's good enough for
the purpose (embedded controller), why use a laptop? That's overkill!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Python-list <python-list-bounces+avi.e.gross=gmail.com@python.org> On
> Behalf Of rbowman via Python-list
> Sent: Friday, August 23, 2024 1:22 AM
> To: python-list@python.org
> Subject: Re: new here
>
> On Fri, 23 Aug 2024 16:23:42 +1200, dn wrote:
>
>> Adding a display to the Pico-W is my next project... After that, gyros
>> (am thinking it may not go so well, on balance... hah!).
>
> https://toptechboy.com/two-axis-tilt-meter-displaying-pitch-and-roll-" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://toptechboy.com/two-axis-tilt-meter-displaying-pitch-and-roll-
> using-an-mpu6050-on-the-raspberry-pi-pico-w/
>
> You might have to go back a lesson or two for the lead up. As he generally
> says in the intro most of what he uses is from the Sunfounder Kepler kit.
> It has a standard LCD display but he suggested buying the OLED separately
> and used it for Lissajous patterns and other fancier stuff.
>
> It's not a bad series although he can be long-winded and his Python style
> definitely isn't PEP8 friendly.
>
> https://toptechboy.com/
>
> He switched to the Arduino Uno R4 after the IR controller/NeoPixel Pico
> project and I don't know if he intends to go back to the Pico. He uses
> Thonny but I use the MicroPython extension in VS Code. Lately I've been
> using Code for everything. Mostly I work on Linux boxes but it's all the
> same on Windows. There is a PlatformIO extension that works with Arduino
> and other boards. PyLance upsets some because it's a MS product but it
> works well too. I've used PyCharm and like it but I also work on C, ..NET,
> Angular, and other projects and Code gives me a uniform IDE.

--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

rbowman <bowman@montana.com> writes:

> On Sun, 25 Aug 2024 21:29:30 -0400, avi.e.gross wrote:
>
>> If everyone will pardon my curiosity, who and what purposes are these
>> smaller environments for and do many people use them?
>>
>> I mean the price of a typical minimal laptop is not a big deal today. So
>> are these for some sort of embedded uses?
>>
>> I read about them ages ago but wonder ...
>
> Typically they are used for I/O with the physical world. Some, like the
> Arduino Nano Sense, have a number of sensors on the board including a 9
> axis inertial, temperature, humidity, barometric, microphone, light
> intensity, and color sensors. MIT chose this for their TinyML course
> because it was one-stop shopping. Using TinyML, a really cut down version
> of TensorFlow, gesture, wake word, image recognition, and other tasks were
> move entirely to the edge device.
>
> Others, like the Pico series, bring out the I/O pins but have little
> onboard. Many pins are multi-purpose and are used for SPI or I2C
> protocols, PWM, A/D measurements, and plain vanilla digital.
>
> The Raspberry Pi series lives in both worlds. Particularly with the new Pi
> 5, it's usable as a desktop Linux system, if somewhat limited, while
> bringing out the PIO pins.
>
> It's really a different world than a typical laptop. Years (decades?) ago
> you could subvert the parallel port controller to provide digital I/O but
> who has seen a parallel port lately?
>
> There are many families and devices available that are used for any number
> of projects that need to interact with the real world. The earliest
> variants were usually programmed in assembler since 2k of EPROM and 128
> bytes of RAM was typical. As they improved C was sued. Now there's enough
> flash and SRAM to support MicroPython or CircuitPython and they are fast
> enough for most purposes. There are specialized drivers but if you know
> Python the bulk of the logic will be very familiar.
>
> For example I have a desktop Python app that pulls weather data from
> NOAA's web API. The Pico W has Wifi, so if I wanted to compare NOAA's
> temperature, humidity, and barometric pressure to the values I read from a
> local sensor, the API requests and parsing the JSON reply would be almost
> identical to the desktop code. Conversely I could use the Pico W as a web
> server to make its sensor reading available.

That is so cool. I've had the same idea to use the API with AWS for my
bbs. I also want to do the same thing for other government sites like
ecfr for pulling aviation regulations.

Is your code somewhere I can look at it?

Daniel

On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 08:41:28 +0100, Daniel wrote:

> That is so cool. I've had the same idea to use the API with AWS for my
> bbs. I also want to do the same thing for other government sites like
> ecfr for pulling aviation regulations.
>
> Is your code somewhere I can look at it?

The NOAA? I didn't get dncy so I'm calling get_station_info with a
hardcoded latitude and longitude. The commented out print(json.dumps())
pretty print the JSON so you can decide what to extract. I'm not 100% sure
about tacking K onto the grid ID. The famous 'works for me' A URL like

https://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.php?lat=40.8551337&lon=-114.0140115

will show the same info, in this case for Wendover Airport (KENV).

https://www.weather.gov/documentation/services-web-api

is the documentation for the API.

import json
import requests

def get_station_info(latitude, longitude):
url = f"https://api.weather.gov/points/{latitude},{longitude}"
response = requests.get(url).json()
# print(json.dumps(response, indent=4, sort_keys=True))
property = response['properties']
grid_id = property["gridId"]
grid_x = property["gridX"]
grid_y = property["gridY"]
forecast_url = property["forecast"]
observation_url = f"https://api.weather.gov/stations/K{grid_id}/
observations/latest"
response = requests.get(observation_url).json()
# print(json.dumps(response, indent=4, sort_keys=True))
properties = response['properties']
pressure = properties['barometricPressure']
temperature = properties['temperature']
humidity = properties['relativeHumidity']
dewpoint = properties['dewpoint']

temp = 9 * temperature['value'] / 5 + 32
dew = 9 * dewpoint['value'] / 5 + 32
hum = humidity['value']
bp = pressure['value'] * 0.000295
print(f"temperature {temp} dewpoint {dew:.2f} humidity {hum:.2f}
pressure {bp:.2f}\n")

response = requests.get(forecast_url).json()
properties = response['properties']
periods = properties['periods']
# print(json.dumps(period, indent=4, sort_keys=True))
for i in range(0, len(periods)):
period = periods[i]
print(period['name'])
print(period['detailedForecast'])
print(f"temperature: {period['temperature']}")
print(f"wind {period['windSpeed']} {period['windDirection']}")
print()