"Skeeter" <skeeterweed@photonmail.com> wrote in message
news:6692d676$0$973$882e4bbb@reader.netnews.com...
> In article <v6u88b$3ld90$17@dont-email.me>,
> me4guns@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net says...
>>
>> "In the Name of Jesus" <michaelmclean2021@outlook.com> wrote in message
>> news:v6sd9j$3764m$5@dont-email.me...
>> > On 13/07/2024 1:28 am, Scout wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "Vincent Maycock" <maycock@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> >> news:q0709j5rrn8aj7t2d2s44stoo8p2pjj7b0@4ax.com...
>> >>> On Thu, 11 Jul 2024 13:18:58 -0400, "Scout"
>> >>> <me4guns@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> "Vincent Maycock" <maycock@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> >>>> news:rq109jtkr3flolmv3n7luc2cugdmfc3vt6@4ax.com...
>> >>>>> On Thu, 11 Jul 2024 09:13:14 -0400, "Scout"
>> >>>>> <me4guns@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> "Vincent Maycock" <maycock@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> >>>>>> news:h28u8j98e8hm2gq7c61djiqbdeqvb0mbs9@4ax.com...
>> >>>>>>> On Wed, 10 Jul 2024 10:08:56 -0400, "Scout"
>> >>>>>>> <me4guns@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> <snip>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Seems like it. It's just a different faith.. I mean they even
>> >>>>>>>> have
>> >>>>>>>> their
>> >>>>>>>> own
>> >>>>>>>> churches. So either they are lying about their lack of faith or
>> >>>>>>>> they are
>> >>>>>>>> committing tax evasion and should go to jail.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Even the hardened Kevrob atheist admitted he leaves the door
>> >>>>>>>>> ever
>> >>>>>>>>> so
>> >>>>>>>>> slightly open, which was honest.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> True, you have to give him that. I tend to be more of an
>> >>>>>>>> agnostic
>> >>>>>>>> type
>> >>>>>>>> of
>> >>>>>>>> person. I would acknowledge the possibility of one or more
>> >>>>>>>> entities
>> >>>>>>>> which
>> >>>>>>>> would be god like, but currently we have no true evidence of
>> >>>>>>>> such
>> >>>>>>>> being(s).
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> We don't currently have any true evidence of the existence of
>> >>>>>>> pink
>> >>>>>>> garden unicorns. Are you agnostic about their existence?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Yep. If you believe in them and it makes you happy, and doesn't
>> >>>>>> harm
>> >>>>>> anyone
>> >>>>>> else. Go for it.
>> >>>>>> After all, in all the Universe there well could be something we
>> >>>>>> might
>> >>>>>> call
>> >>>>>> a
>> >>>>>> pink garden unicorn.. or there could not.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> With up to 2 trillion galaxies in the universe that we know of or
>> >>>>>> suspect,
>> >>>>>> and each galaxy having about 100 Billion stars be galaxy, and if
>> >>>>>> we
>> >>>>>> assume
>> >>>>>> 1.6 planets per star.. and then if we assume only 0.1% of those
>> >>>>>> are
>> >>>>>> habitable, and only 0.1% of those are inhabited.. That leaves a
>> >>>>>> LOT
>> >>>>>> of
>> >>>>>> room
>> >>>>>> for a pink garden unicorn to exist or not.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> What about the Keebler Elves? Could *they* be lurking in a tree
>> >>>>> near
>> >>>>> you?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Lame evasion.
>> >>>
>> >>> How so?
>> >>
>> >> Because your line of questioning as already failed.
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>>>>>> However, if our thoughts about the size of the Universe is
>> >>>>>>>> anywhere
>> >>>>>>>> close
>> >>>>>>>> to
>> >>>>>>>> being true, and the time that the Universe is thought to have
>> >>>>>>>> existed..
>> >>>>>>>> there could be entities that are as far above us, as we are
>> >>>>>>>> above
>> >>>>>>>> ants.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Is it possible, in your opinion, to rule out the existence of
>> >>>>>>> certain
>> >>>>>>> *types* of gods?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Depends on what type you're talking about.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> For example we know there can be no omnipotent omni-
>> >>>>>>> benevolent god of the Christian sort out there
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Depends are you talking true omnipotence or something so far in
>> >>>>>> advance of
>> >>>>>> our civilization at the point of contact to appear so?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Either one.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Then I would put it that a civilization advanced enough to easily
>> >>>> travel
>> >>>> between the stars would appear damn near omnipotent to the people
>> >>>> 2000
>> >>>> years
>> >>>> ago.
>> >>>
>> >>> True. What's your point?
>> >>
>> >> That you just agreed with me, thus establishing my point made that you
>> >> can't possibly know what you asserted you did above.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>>>> Further, from my readings God is not omni-benevolent, in fact in
>> >>>>>> some
>> >>>>>> ways
>> >>>>>> God seems quite selfish, particularly when it comes worship.
>> >>>>>> See Exodus 20:3-5/6 depending on which version you use.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Of course that is somewhat contradicted by claims there are no
>> >>>>>> other
>> >>>>>> Gods
>> >>>>>> while at the same time declaring there shall be no Gods before
>> >>>>>> him.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> So, yea, there is a lot of wiggle room there. I certainly know of
>> >>>>>> no
>> >>>>>> claim
>> >>>>>> of omnipotence or omni-benevolence from the Biblical God.
>> >>>>>> I mean he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for a rather petty reason
>> >>>>>> by a
>> >>>>>> few
>> >>>>>> of
>> >>>>>> the people who lived there. Hardly seems omni-benevolent to me.
>> >>>>>> I mean consider endless eternal damnation for limited and very
>> >>>>>> finite
>> >>>>>> offenses... Does that sound like being omni-benevolent?
>> >>>>>> Yes, the Bible is full of such contradictions within itself and
>> >>>>>> within
>> >>>>>> religions teachings of it.
>> >>>>>> Now perhaps in God's view his is both.. but from ours, not so
>> >>>>>> much.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Note:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/zf626yc/revision/1
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> So you're saying if the Christian god exists, he must be evil?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Would depend on your point of view, wouldn't it?
>> >>>
>> >>> What would prevent God from sharing this rather important information
>> >>> with us about human suffering from his point of view?
>> >>
>> >> Lack of understanding? Knowledge you would never understand it at your
>> >> age of development.
>> >>
>> >> I mean do you explain to a 9 month old baby why you are going to stab
>> >> them with a sharp object, or do you do so because you know it's for
>> >> the
>> >> good of the baby?
>> >>
>> >> I mean you could try to explain it.. but realizing it's futile to do
>> >> so,
>> >> who would bother?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>> Even benevolence can seem like utter cruelty to the ill informed and
>> >>>> visa
>> >>>> verse.
>> >>>
>> >>> So is this the "best of all possible worlds," in your view?
>> >>
>> >> Hardly, but it could be better than it might have been otherwise.. See
>> >> above about the baby receiving a shot.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>>> I
>> >>>>> wouldn't quarrel with that -- but since Christians are generally
>> >>>>> unwilling to agree with a statement like that, I generally phrase
>> >>>>> it
>> >>>>> as "the Christian god does not exist."
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Well, first we would have to establish exactly what the term
>> >>>> "Christian
>> >>>> god"
>> >>>> means and exactly how that is supported. In a discussion like that
>> >>>> precise
>> >>>> and specific meaning would need to be determined and supported. Not
>> >>>> just
>> >>>> from the view of the people saying it but also what they can support
>> >>>> as
>> >>>> being directly referenced. I mean it's nice to say God is
>> >>>> omnipotent,
>> >>>> but
>> >>>> did God ever state that and to what if any limits, either inherent
>> >>>> or
>> >>>> self
>> >>>> imposed.
>> >>>
>> >>> At the very least, the Bible portrays God as being really powerful;
>> >>
>> >> Agreed and given the civilization at the time, that wouldn't be that
>> >> hard
>> >> to do. Heck we could probably do at least some of that today if we
>> >> wanted
>> >> to.
>> >>
>> >>> so
>> >>> we don't necessarily have to even mention the idea of omnipotence
>> >>
>> >> Well since we are the ones that asserted omnipotence... it would be
>> >> our
>> >> error.
>> >>
>> >>> when investigating all the suffering around us and asking why God
>> >>> would allow it, if he existed.
>> >>
>> >> Reference the baby above. Do you crawl on your hands and knees because
>> >> otherwise you might have to suffer learning to walk?
>> >> Do you refuse to swim because you might suffer some learning how to do
>> >> so?
>> >>
>> >> Nope, if you had your way, we could neither feed ourselves, move
>> >> ourselves or even care for ourselves.. the "benevolent god" would have
>> >> to
>> >> care and provide for us every moment of every day, and prevent us from
>> >> doing or seeking anything else.
>> >>
>> >> No, suffering is sometimes necessary to growth. To suggest none should
>> >> exist is to deny growth, change, advancement.... which hardly sounds
>> >> like
>> >> something a benevolent God would do.
>> >>
>> >> Really? You need to try to think these things through for yourself..
>> >> as
>> >> it is you're just looking like a fool.
>> >
>> > Vincent has a strong tendency to tweak, twist, and distort in order to
>> > try
>> > and shift what he believes into an edifice of fact, reality, and truth.
>> >
>> > There is plain old common sense in your replies. It is actually
>> > refreshing. Skeeter's replies are quite often similar.
>> >
>> > Personally, I am not bothered if a person is atheist, agnostic, or
>> > religious; in all cases every day common sense, logic, and truth is
>> > most
>> > welcome.
>>
>> Yep, free will means we can have different beliefs. The ONLY thing I tend
>> to
>> look for is your ability to support your beliefs even if only because you
>> believe in it by faith... and if that's the case, allow others to do the
>> same. If you're going to demand proof of their beliefs then you should be
>> willing to do the same for yours.
>> Indeed, I just had a thought.. maybe, it's not so much what about what
>> your
>> faith is, than it is about you having faith. Interesting notion. I will
>> have to think on that.
>>
>>
>> In short, generally, don't ask for what you wouldn't provide.
>>
>> I have had several people tell me that I am a deeply spiritual person,
>> because I've at least given the matter serious thought.
>> Perhaps, that's all that is really needed...
>> To have a faith, to think about it, to question it, to challenge it.. to
>> accept it.
>> I don't know, maybe I never will, but I do hope there is more...
>>
>
> Religion is for people who are afraid of going to hell, spirituality is
> for people who have already been there.

Hmmmm... Interesting notion.