On 13/07/2024 1:28 am, Scout wrote:
>
>
> "Vincent Maycock" <maycock@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:q0709j5rrn8aj7t2d2s44stoo8p2pjj7b0@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 11 Jul 2024 13:18:58 -0400, "Scout"
>> <me4guns@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Vincent Maycock" <maycock@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:rq109jtkr3flolmv3n7luc2cugdmfc3vt6@4ax.com...
>>>> On Thu, 11 Jul 2024 09:13:14 -0400, "Scout"
>>>> <me4guns@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Vincent Maycock" <maycock@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:h28u8j98e8hm2gq7c61djiqbdeqvb0mbs9@4ax.com...
>>>>>> On Wed, 10 Jul 2024 10:08:56 -0400, "Scout"
>>>>>> <me4guns@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Seems like it. It's just a different faith.. I mean they even
>>>>>>> have their
>>>>>>> own
>>>>>>> churches. So either they are lying about their lack of faith or
>>>>>>> they are
>>>>>>> committing tax evasion and should go to jail.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Even the hardened Kevrob atheist admitted he leaves the door
>>>>>>>> ever so
>>>>>>>> slightly open, which was honest.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> True, you have to give him that. I tend to be more of an agnostic
>>>>>>> type
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> person. I would acknowledge the possibility of one or more entities
>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>> would be god like, but currently we have no true evidence of such
>>>>>>> being(s).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We don't currently have any true evidence of the existence of pink
>>>>>> garden unicorns.  Are you agnostic about their existence?
>>>>>
>>>>> Yep. If you believe in them and it makes you happy, and doesn't harm
>>>>> anyone
>>>>> else. Go for it.
>>>>> After all, in all the Universe there well could be something we
>>>>> might call
>>>>> a
>>>>> pink garden unicorn.. or there could not.
>>>>>
>>>>> With up to 2 trillion galaxies in the universe that we know of or
>>>>> suspect,
>>>>> and each galaxy having about 100 Billion stars be galaxy, and if we
>>>>> assume
>>>>> 1.6 planets per star.. and then if we assume only 0.1% of those are
>>>>> habitable, and only 0.1% of those are inhabited.. That leaves a LOT of
>>>>> room
>>>>> for a pink garden unicorn to exist or not.
>>>>
>>>> What about the Keebler Elves?  Could *they* be lurking in a tree near
>>>> you?
>>>
>>> Lame evasion.
>>
>> How so?
>
> Because your line of questioning as already failed.
>
>>
>>>>>>> However, if our thoughts about the size of the Universe is anywhere
>>>>>>> close
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> being true, and the time that the Universe is thought to have
>>>>>>> existed..
>>>>>>> there could be entities that are as far above us, as we are above
>>>>>>> ants.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is it possible, in your opinion, to rule out the existence of certain
>>>>>> *types* of gods?
>>>>>
>>>>> Depends on what type you're talking about.
>>>>>
>>>>>>  For example we know there can be no omnipotent omni-
>>>>>> benevolent god of the Christian sort out there
>>>>>
>>>>> Depends are you talking true omnipotence or something so far in
>>>>> advance of
>>>>> our civilization at the point of contact to appear so?
>>>>
>>>> Either one.
>>>
>>> Then I would put it that a civilization advanced enough to easily travel
>>> between the stars would appear damn near omnipotent to the people
>>> 2000 years
>>> ago.
>>
>> True.  What's your point?
>
> That you just agreed with me, thus establishing my point made that you
> can't possibly know what you asserted you did above.
>
>
>>>>> Further, from my readings God is not omni-benevolent, in fact in
>>>>> some ways
>>>>> God seems quite selfish, particularly when it comes worship.
>>>>> See Exodus 20:3-5/6 depending on which version you use.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course that is somewhat contradicted by claims there are no
>>>>> other Gods
>>>>> while at the same time declaring there shall be no Gods before him.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, yea, there is a lot of wiggle room there. I certainly know of
>>>>> no claim
>>>>> of omnipotence or omni-benevolence from the Biblical God.
>>>>> I mean he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for a rather petty reason by
>>>>> a few
>>>>> of
>>>>> the people who lived there. Hardly seems omni-benevolent to me.
>>>>> I mean consider endless eternal damnation for limited and very finite
>>>>> offenses...  Does that sound like being omni-benevolent?
>>>>> Yes, the Bible is full of such contradictions within itself and within
>>>>> religions teachings of it.
>>>>> Now perhaps in God's view his is both.. but from ours, not so much.
>>>>
>>>> Note:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/zf626yc/revision/1
>>>>
>>>> So you're saying if the Christian god exists, he must be evil?
>>>
>>> Would depend on your point of view, wouldn't it?
>>
>> What would prevent God from sharing this rather important information
>> with us about human suffering from his point of view?
>
> Lack of understanding? Knowledge you would never understand it at your
> age of development.
>
> I mean do you explain to a 9 month old baby why you are going to stab
> them with a sharp object, or do you do so because you know it's for the
> good of the baby?
>
> I mean you could try to explain it.. but realizing it's futile to do so,
> who would bother?
>
>
>>> Even benevolence can seem like utter cruelty to the ill informed and
>>> visa
>>> verse.
>>
>> So is this the "best of all possible worlds," in your view?
>
> Hardly, but it could be better than it might have been otherwise.. See
> above about the baby receiving a shot.
>
>
>>>>  I
>>>> wouldn't quarrel with that -- but since Christians are generally
>>>> unwilling to agree with a statement like that, I generally phrase it
>>>> as "the Christian god does not exist."
>>>
>>> Well, first we would have to establish exactly what the term
>>> "Christian god"
>>> means and exactly how that is supported.  In a discussion like that
>>> precise
>>> and specific meaning would need to be determined and supported. Not just
>>> from the view of the people saying it but also what they can support as
>>> being directly referenced. I mean it's nice to say God is omnipotent,
>>> but
>>> did God ever state that and to what if any limits, either inherent or
>>> self
>>> imposed.
>>
>> At the very least, the Bible portrays God as being really powerful;
>
> Agreed and given the civilization at the time, that wouldn't be that
> hard to do. Heck we could probably do at least some of that today if we
> wanted to.
>
>> so
>> we don't necessarily have to even  mention the idea of omnipotence
>
> Well since we are the ones that asserted omnipotence... it would be our
> error.
>
>> when investigating all the suffering around us and asking why God
>> would allow it, if he existed.
>
> Reference the baby above. Do you crawl on your hands and knees because
> otherwise you might have to suffer learning to walk?
> Do you refuse to swim because you might suffer some learning how to do so?
>
> Nope, if you had your way, we could neither feed ourselves, move
> ourselves or even care for ourselves.. the "benevolent god" would have
> to care and provide for us every moment of every day, and prevent us
> from doing or seeking anything else.
>
> No, suffering is sometimes necessary to growth. To suggest none should
> exist is to deny growth, change, advancement.... which hardly sounds
> like something a benevolent God would do.
>
> Really? You need to try to think these things through for yourself.. as
> it is you're just looking like a fool.

Vincent has a strong tendency to tweak, twist, and distort in order to
try and shift what he believes into an edifice of fact, reality, and truth.

There is plain old common sense in your replies. It is actually
refreshing. Skeeter's replies are quite often similar.

Personally, I am not bothered if a person is atheist, agnostic, or
religious; in all cases every day common sense, logic, and truth is most
welcome.

In the Name of Jesus

--
God is God in all His Being. All the glory is His, for He is all glory.

Jesus is the everlasting Father, Jesus is God, Jesus is the Lord. John
10:30  I and Father are one. If you can't see that the Lord Jesus is the
everlasting Father you are not born again and can't see the Kingdom of God.

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were
YET sinners, Christ died for us.

Jeremiah 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it
is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

Psalms 53:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt
are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.

Proverbs 12:15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that
hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.

"To seek your own will is to seek your own glory."

"If God is not first in everything He is not first in anything."

"What makes the bible the truth? The resonance (voice, the Person) of
God. When you find Him you have found the author."

"All men were born sinners. Why? Because all men were born not loving
God with all their heart, soul, and mind. An abomination. Therefore,
sin is not what you do; it is what you are."

"Compromise will condemn you."

"There are no sinners in Christ Jesus."

"My sons are born of Me. In them is no darkness at all."

"You can't learn righteousness. Haven't you had enough time already to
know that?"

"The way of truth is the testimony of life."

"I merely speak the truth, what is revealed to me, and the cards fall
where God intends."

"Nothing that is produced is produced without first being faith."

"You can only find proof of God through faith because that is how we all
live, by faith."

"It is not what you do that matters, it is how you treat Me."

"Keep going forward. Forget about the past. Lift up your head, look
ahead."

"You cannot be free and free indeed with guilt in your heart."

"Priority is everything."

"The truth doesn't need evidence, it is evidence."

"There is no greater possession a man has than his own will, to squander
it or to place it where it truly belongs."

"An atheist is a fool who thinks truth is found in living a lie."

"Saying "prove it" [as a foundation] is merely an ignorant straw man, to
an ignorant straw man."

"Wait, rest, be still, and know."

"No man can wash his own hands!!!"

"I find this in the Christianity religions: 'Nobody's perfect' they say,
and they use that as an excuse not to do what is perfect."

The Atheist: "They don't believe and put their faith in a Creator (the
obvious). So no evidence and proof is to be found!!"

"The world is the way it is because God can't compromise who He is."

"Man is not the centre of being."

"Man is incompatible with the natural world because of his sinful nature."

"And then the Lord said, "I see everything."

"Man has no greater idol than his own will."

"Where is God hiding? He isn't."

"If you don't keep all the scriptures, you can't keep any of them."

"You can't prove anything because everything depends on a person's
willingness to believe."

"Atheists are ultimately trying to be pointlessness, meaninglessness,
and purposelessness in their point, meaning, and purpose."

"The last day of creation will be the last day of time. God is always
full of hope."

"The veil of the temple was rent in twain, not to have a book pass
through it so that a sinner could play God."

"A phylactery does not a heart for God make. Not back then, and not today."

"No one in heaven is better (or higher) than what makes it heaven. Such
is the love of God."

"The definition of an atheist: A man full of bluster and bullshit
pretending he is the meaning of life."

"Free will is not power; it is the choice that I allow; that choice is
still according to my power," says the Lord.

What does a fool do? A fool looks for a "nothing" in a "something" in
order to explain the existence of existence.

"Unless you do all because He is who He is, all your religion is in vain."

"Every man is subject to God; He judges every man, and He is reality.
 What a gift in a fallen world!"

"Love MUST be a choice or it is nothing but a law!"

"Why were all men born sinners? So that God could reveal Himself, so
that we would behold the glory of God, and that we should bring forth
the glory of God"

"God does not and will not arbitrate for any man to love Him! If God
isn't everything to you, He is nothing to you where the rubber meets the
road."

"It is the unforgivable sin not to love God with all your heart, soul,
and mind. What do you have that is lasting? It is not so much being
punished; it is what you are left with."

"Love isn't worth anything without first a free will choice for God to
birth it in a man."

"The point of salvation: desperation. Anything less than that is
self-righteousness."

"A sinner is not a believer in God; a sinner is a believer in sin."

"A piece of dirt is not the promised land; that is only a reflection.
The promised land is knowing Me, says the Lord."

"It is all about God or it is all about idolatry."

"The Lord Jesus is coming soon. He has always come soon."

"There is no revolving door of self-worship in a son of God's life!"

"There is no such thing as random!"

"You can't truly love without it being with all your heart."

"No one can see God without their whole heart. Unless you can see God,
you know nothing."

"You can't learn God, God has to reveal Himself to you."

"No sinner is sinless in any way."

"Only God is life; only the Kingdom of God of His "Nature" is life."

"What you believe is just a leaning on your own understanding; faith is
a leaning on the one you have chosen to trust."

"God uses the "letter" to crucify a man and raise him from the dead."

"Not fearing God is sheer stupidity for sinners."

"Self-righteousness is any exclusion of God in your heart, because any
exclusion reveals that you think more about yourself than what you
really are."

"Atheism: "The claim that life received from itself."

"But remember this: always, absolutely always, all the glory is the
Lord's and His alone, and anyone who takes any credit for anything, you
know, instantly, he is not what he pretends to be and is a false prophet."

"That light had to bear (bears all things) the darkness for us, but that
light did not ever become darkness."

"You must reach beyond the bible that tells you about Him, and into your
daily life to find Him in Person. He's there."

"What is wrong with Christendom? False understanding based on compromise."

"It is not in man to love his enemies. And if he tries, he is walking in
a lie and trying to raise himself up to the level of God."

"