On 1/06/2024 7:47 am, ChristRose wrote:
> ========================
> On Fri, 31 May 2024 12:01:20 -0700,
> Article:<0001HW.2C0A56000008BC9030DEA238F@news.eternal-september.org>,
> Robert wrote:
> ========================
>
> Your subject line is a complete and
> total lie, which will result in people
> thinking they stand and not taking heed,
> lest they fall. The believer has
> positionally died with Christ to sin and
> risen with Him to newness of life

"Positionally."

As opposed to what?

In the Name of Jesus

> (Romans 6), yet is still exhorted to
> yield to the Spirit not the lusts of the
> flesh (cf. Galatians 5), as will be
> shown below. This proves that being set
> free from the obligation to sin does not
> eradicate your sin nature, or guarantee
> sinless perfection in your daily walk.
>
>
>> Rom 7:1-6 (TPT)
>>
>> 1 I write to you, dear brothers and sisters, who are familiar with the law.
>> Don’t you know that when a person dies, it ends his obligation to the law?
>>
>> 2 For example, a married couple is bound by the law to remain together until
>> separated by death. But when one spouse dies, the other is released from the
>> law of the marriage.
>>
>> 3 So then if a wife is joined to another man while still married, she commits
>> adultery. But if her husband dies, she is obviously free from the marriage
>> contract and may marry another man without being charged with adultery.
>>
>> 4 So, my dear brothers and sisters, the same principle applies to your
>> relationship with God. For you died to your first husband, the law, by being
>> co-crucified with the body of the Messiah. So you are now free to
>> “marry” another—the one who was raised from the dead so that you may
>> now bear spiritual fruit for God.
>>
>> 5 When we were merely living natural lives, the law, through defining sin,
>> actually awakened sinful desires within us, which resulted in bearing the
>> fruit of death.
>>
>> 6 But now that we have been fully released from the power of the law, we are
>> dead to what once controlled us. And our lives are no longer motivated by the
>> obsolete way of following the written code, so that now we may serve God by
>> living in the freshness of a new life in the power of the Holy Spirit.
>
>
> idem. That shows we have been set free
> from the obligation to sin by virtue of
> being baptized into Christ's death to
> sin and resurrection to newness of life
> (cf. Romans 6), not that our old nature
> was eradicated, which would contradict
> everything else Romans 7 says:
>
> “For what I am doing, I do not
> understand. For what I will to do, that
> I do not practice; but what I hate, that
> I do. If, then, I do what I will not to
> do, I agree with the law that it is
> good. But now, it is no longer I who do
> it, but sin that dwells in me. For I
> know that in me (that is, in my flesh)
> nothing good dwells; for to will is
> present with me, but how to perform what
> is good I do not find. For the good that
> I will to do, I do not do; but the evil
> I will not to do, that I practice. Now
> if I do what I will not to do, it is no
> longer I who do it, but sin that dwells
> in me. I find then a law, that evil is
> present with me, the one who wills to do
> good. For I delight in the law of God
> according to the inward man. But I see
> another law in my members, warring
> against the law of my mind, and bringing
> me into captivity to the law of sin
> which is in my members. O wretched man
> that I am! Who will deliver me from this
> body of death? I thank God—through Jesus
> Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind
> I myself serve the law of God, but with
> the flesh the law of sin.” (Romans
> 7:15–25, NKJV)
>
> Your view shows only half the story, and
> pits Scripture against Scripture. My
> view shows the harmony of Scripture.
>
>
>> The New Man
>> Heb 8:10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
>> after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind,
>> andwrite them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be
>> to me a people:
>
>
> True, but does not mean believers do not
> also struggle with a sin nature, as is
> abundantly clear from every single book
> in the New Testament:
>
> https://christrose.news/sin-nature
>
>
>
>> Heb 10:16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days,
>> saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will
>> I write them;
>
>
> idem.
>
>
>> No more dominance of sin on BAM
>>
>> Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under
>> the law, but under grace.
>
>
> He cherry-picks what he wants out of
> chapters, then uses it to promote a
> contradiction to what the rest of the
> chapter plainly states:
>
> “Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to
> be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God
> in Christ Jesus our Lord. Therefore do
> not let sin reign in your mortal body,
> that you should obey it in its lusts.
> And do not present your members as
> instruments of unrighteousness to sin,
> but present yourselves to God as being
> alive from the dead, and your members as
> instruments of righteousness to God. For
> sin shall not have dominion over you,
> for you are not under law but under
> grace.” (Romans 6:11–14, NKJV)
>
> Thus, the believer is exhorted to
> "reckon yourselves to be dead" to sin.
> It is our position in Christ, but it has
> to be "reckoned" before it benefits the
> believer in his daily walk. If the old
> nature were actually "GONE", it would
> not be necessary to "reckon" it to be
> gone. It would just be gone and unable
> to influence the believer.
>
> The passage exhorts believers to "not to
> let sin reign in his mortal body or obey
> it's lusts". What a dumb and useless
> statement to make, if the believer had
> no mortal nature to cause him to lust,
> because it was "GONE". Robert confuses
> our position in Christ with our walk on
> earth, to promote a contradiction to the
> plain teachings of Scripture. My view
> shows the harmony in the whole passage.
>
>
>> 2 Corinthians 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle
>> of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the
>> living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
>
> idem. That says the believer has a new
> heart, but it does not negate the fact
> the believer also retains a sin nature.
>
> “Do we begin again to commend ourselves?
> Or do we need, as some others, epistles
> of commendation to you or letters of
> commendation from you?” (2 Corinthians
> 3:1, NKJV)
>
> In the larger theme of this segment,
> Paul is correcting the Corinthians for
> their carnal tendency to base someone's
> credibility as a preacher on "letters of
> recommendation" that come from men.
> Thus, every passage Robert selectively
> chooses from, can be shown in its larger
> context to point to the opposite
> conclusion.
>
> “Now these things became our examples,
> to the intent that we should not lust
> after evil things as they also lusted.
> And do not become idolaters as were some
> of them. As it is written, “The people
> sat down to eat and drink, and rose up
> to play.” Nor let us commit sexual
> immorality, as some of them did, and in
> one day twenty-three thousand fell; nor
> let us tempt Christ, as some of them
> also tempted, and were destroyed by
> serpents; nor complain, as some of them
> also complained, and were destroyed by
> the destroyer. Now all these things
> happened to them as examples, and they
> were written for our admonition, upon
> whom the ends of the ages have come.
> Therefore let him who thinks he stands
> take heed lest he fall.” (1 Corinthians
> 10:6–12, NKJV)
>
> Robert actually cites that passage, as
> proof that believers do not struggle
> with a sin nature. What useless and dumb
> instructions to give to someone, if they
> had only a new nature, and no old nature
> that could even tempt them to commit
> lust or idolatry. Robert's selective
> theology implies that he thinks he
> stands, and there's no need to take heed
> lest he fall.
>
>> Galatians 5:22-25(KJV)
>>
>> 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness,
>> goodness, faith,
>>
>> 23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
>>
>> 24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and
>> lusts.
>>
>> 25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
>
>
> Again, Robert cites a verse which
> exhorts people to "walk in the Spirit",
> then pretends like it isn't even
> possible for a believer to walk in the
> flesh, because the flesh is dead. Yet
> Galatians rebukes them for walking in
> the flesh, and exhorts them to walk in
> the Spirit:
>
> “I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you
> shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
>
> [What? What flesh? Robert just told me
> the flesh was dead and "GONE". If the
> flesh died, how is there still "flesh"
> to promote lust? How is it the Galatians
> were walking in the flesh, and had to be
> told about it?]
>
> For the flesh lusts against the Spirit,
> and the Spirit against the flesh;
>
> [Uh-uh. Robert told me the flesh was
> dead and GONE. What do you mean the
> flesh lusts against the Spirit and the
> Spirit against the flesh?]
>
> and these are contrary to one another,
> so that you do not do the things that
> you wish.
>
> [Nope. Robert said the flesh is dead. It
> poses no threat. It's not even possible
> for me to be tempted by or walk in the
> flesh, because he said the flesh is dead
> and "GONE".]
>
> But if you are led by the Spirit, you
> are not under the law.” (Galatians
> 5:16–18, NKJV)
>
> I can't help but notice the hypocrisy in
> Roberts understanding of the word "if".
> In 1 John 2, Robert argues that the word
> "if" in "if any man sins" means it's
> "unusual" that he would err. Now, when
> it says "if" you are led by the Spirit,
> Robert contends the believer can't yield
> to the flesh, because it died, and could
> only yield to the Spirit. Decide what
> "if" means, Robert <chuckle>. Here's the
> proof:
>
> ========================
> On Fri, 31 May 2024 00:21:24 -0500,
> Article:<77di5j5o2hp1jlhaovi9aj237dfotnevej@christrose.news>,
> ChristRose wrote:
> ========================
> Robert wrote:
>>> If a man sins, infers that it is unusual for that person to err.
>>
>>
>> Let's consider this:
>>
>> In 1 John 2:1, the phrase “And if anyone
>> sins” is translated from the Greek
>> phrase ?a? ??? t?? ?µ??t? (kai ean tis
>> hamartei). To understand whether this
>> "if" implies that sinning is rare or
>> common, we need to examine the Greek
>> words and grammar, as well as the
>> context within the epistle.
>>
>> Greek Words and Grammar
>>
>> The word “if” (???, ean) in Greek is a
>> conditional particle that can be used to
>> introduce a conditional clause. The verb
>> “sins” (?µ??t?, hamartei) is in the
>> aorist subjunctive, indicating a
>> hypothetical situation or potential
>> action. The combination of ean with the
>> subjunctive mood often denotes a
>> third-class condition, which expresses
>> potential action rather than certainty.
>>
>> Context and Larger Context
>>
>> 1 John 2:1 is part of John's broader
>> discussion about sin, righteousness, and
>> the advocacy of Jesus Christ. In the
>> preceding chapter, John emphasizes the
>> reality of sin and the necessity of
>> confession:
>>
>> - “If we say that we have no sin, we
>> deceive ourselves, and the truth is not
>> in us. If we confess our sins, He is
>> faithful and just to forgive us our sins
>> and to cleanse us from all
>> unrighteousness” (1 John 1:8-9, NKJV).
>>
>> John acknowledges that believers do sin,
>> but he also highlights the provision of
>> Jesus Christ as an Advocate. This
>> advocacy is central to the assurance of
>> forgiveness and cleansing.
>>
>> Possible Understandings
>>
>> 1. Sinning as Hypothetical: The use of
>> "if" (ean) combined with the subjunctive
>> verb (hamartei) can suggest a
>> hypothetical scenario, acknowledging the
>> possibility of sin without necessarily
>> commenting on its frequency. It leaves
>> room for the possibility of sin without
>> implying it is either rare or common.
>>
>> 2. Sinning as Potential: The
>> construction can imply potential or
>> occasional sinning, consistent with the
>> understanding that while believers
>> should strive to avoid sin, they may
>> still fall into it.
>>
>> 3. Sinning as Expected: Given the
>> broader context where John talks about
>> the reality of sin in believers' lives
>> (1 John 1:8-10), the conditional "if"
>> can be understood as acknowledging an
>> expected occurrence. John addresses the
>> likelihood of sin and reassures
>> believers of the advocacy and atonement
>> provided by Christ.
>>
>> Most Likely Understanding
>>
>> Considering the broader context of 1
>> John, the most likely understanding of
>> "if anyone sins" is that John
>> acknowledges sin as a potential and
>> expected occurrence in the life of
>> believers. The conditional clause does
>> not imply that sinning is rare; rather,
>> it realistically addresses the fact of
>> sin while emphasizing the provision of
>> Jesus Christ as an Advocate who
>> intercedes for believers.
>>
>> John's aim is pastoral, offering
>> assurance and encouragement to believers
>> who strive to live righteously but may
>> still fall into sin. The advocacy of
>> Jesus Christ provides ongoing support
>> and forgiveness, ensuring that believers
>> can maintain fellowship with God despite
>> their imperfections.
>>
>> In conclusion, the "if" in 1 John 2:1
>> acknowledges the reality and fact of sin
>> in a believer's life without implying it
>> is rare, and emphasizes the continuous
>> advocacy and righteousness of Jesus
>> Christ for those who do sin (1 John 2:1,
>> NKJV).
> ========================
>
>
>> IOW’s there is no “ overpowering struggle” for those who have put there
>> hand in the hand of he who heals the waters.
>
>
> Where did I ever say there was an
> "overpowering" struggle for a believer.
> Nowhere. That's your supplied context
> and straw-man, where you try to impute
> your own twisted meaning to my views
> where no such idea ever existed.
>
> I said the believer struggles with a sin
> nature (e.g. Romans 7b; Galatians 5),
> not that he is obligated to suffer an
> "overpowering struggle" that prevents
> him from ever walking in the Spirit.
>
>
>> The old man is DEAD.
>
>
> We are told to "reckon" ourselves to
> have died in Christ to sin and to have
> risen with Him to newness of life. This
> means that when we count that to be
> true, we _may_ experience victory over
> sin, not that the old man is currently
> GONE from existence and unable to tempt
> the believer to sin.
>
> ...
>
> “Therefore do not let sin reign in your
> mortal body, that you should obey it in
> its lusts. And do not present your
> members as instruments of
> unrighteousness to sin, but present
> yourselves to God as being alive from
> the dead, and your members as
> instruments of righteousness to God.”
> (Romans 6:12–13, NKJV)
>
> "in Christ", we have died to sin and
> been raised to newness of life (Romans
> 6). Yet the very same passage goes on to
> exhort us to "not let sin reign in your
> mortal body, that you should obey it in
> its lust". That means the mortal body
> still has lusts that can be yielded to.
>
> The position in Christ doesn't guarantee
> automatic victory over sin. You still
> have to "reckon" your position in Christ
> to be true, then "yield" your members as
> instruments of righteousness to God, and
> "not let sin reign in your mortal body".
> That means sin is still in your mortal
> body, but you have to yield to the
> spirit, not your mortal lusts. You
> cherry pick parts of passages, then
> propose a contradictory interpretation
> of them. My view shows the harmony of
> the whole passage. Yours pits them
> against each other.
>
>
> --
> Have you heard the good news Christ died
> for our sins (†), and God raised Him
> from the dead?
>
> That Christ died for our sins shows
> we're sinners who deserve the death
> penalty. That God raised Him from the
> dead shows Christ's death satisfied
> God's righteous demands against our sin
> (Romans 3:25; 1 John 2:1-2). This means
> God can now remain just, while forgiving
> you of your sins, and saving you from
> eternal damnation.
>
> https://christrose.news/salvation