On 5/27/24 9:48 AM, Mitchell Holman wrote:
>"Andrew" <andrew.321.remov@usa.net> wrote in
>news:%BX4O.111248$SC98.84838@fx15.ams4:
>
>> "Dawn Flood" wrote in message news:v2pq1b$29g99$2@dont-email.me...
>>> D wrote:
>>>> Dawn Flood wrote:
>>>>> Creon wrote:
>>>>>> Andrew wrote:
>>>>>>> "Dawn Flood" wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We all sail on the same ship, Michael. It's just that some of us
>>>>>>>> choose to spend our time up on the deck as opposed to scowling
>>>>>>>> down below.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dawn
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ~~~~ The *Ship of Fools* ~~~~.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "We're setting sail. To the place on the map From which no one
>>>>>>> has ever returned Drawn by the promise of the joker and the fool.
>>>>>>> The gold, cotton and the pearls.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's the place where they keep all the darkness you need.You sail
>>>>>>> away from the light of the world (away from Jesus) on this trip,
>>>>>>> baby
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Together they ride the ship into Hell,
>>>>>>> with pools of fire lapping in the wake.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They listen as the bellman tolls.......,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Forward on into the brimstone lake!!"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Damnation doctrine is spiritual terrorism.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Growing up in a fundamentalist Christian church, I used to have
>>>>> night terrors about dying and going to Hell. When I found out that
>>>>> Hell is located in New Jersey, it wasn't such a big deal.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dawn
>>>>
>>>> You did? Would you mind sharing the experience and process of how
>>>> you came to become an atheist? It must be quite difficult to realize
>>>> and change, especially if a lot of friends and family are into the
>>>> sect.
>>>
>>> Oh, that's simple. I got interested in science, and from there,
>>> I learned the scientific method gradually over time. Scientists
>>> are constantly testing their theories and models;
>>
>> Intelligent design uses the scientific method to detect the hallmarks
>> of design in both living systems and the universe at large
>
>
>
> "Those stars are lined up in the
>shape of a bear. Proof of design!"
>
> "The moon seems to have a human
>face. Proof of design!"
>
> "Our atmosphere is perferctly
>suited for us to breathe. Proof
>of design!"
>
> You can find design in anything
>if you want to..........
>

Yep. A scientific experiment whose outcome is known in advance, apart from
being educational and/or a hobby, is of limited utility, unless you are
trying to fix something, say, one's vacuum cleaner.

Ditto for the whole ID paradigm; what would be the point of writing a grant
proposal to research "How God did it?"

Dawn

Andrew wrote:
> "Maximus" wrote in message news:lbdfa4Fpt7cU1@mid.individual.net...
>> Creon wrote:
>>> Michael Christ wrote:
>>
>>>> Atheism is a belief,
>>
>>> Wrong-o.  It's a lack of a belief.  It's right there
>>> in the name: _A_theist.
>>
>> technically you are correct. atheism means without theism, ie. not
>> theist. however, since theism is belief in the existence of a divine
>> being, not believing in the existence of a divine being. ie.
>> believing a divine being does not exist, is also atheism. ie. not theist
>
> However if you are unable to explain WHO
> did it, THEN your belief system is ----->> *intellectually indefensible*.

nonsense. not knowing how the Universe came to be does mean some god did it

>
> Because evidence points to the fact that...
> some super intelligent Agency...did it.
>
> Yes.

there's merit in the argument from what I've seen. for example the level
of gravity is precisely what's needed for life here to exist, and some
minor variation up or down would result in a catastrophe. however, it
could still have happened randomly. for example the chance of winning
powerball is 1 in 134.5 million yet some person won it last week and is
$150 million richer.

--
“Atheism is the birth right of all human, remember that!”- hhyapster 7.4.23

"Christian beliefs fail against reason, facts, and knowledge"

"Religion is not about truth, it's about lifestyle"

"God is a convenient explanation for what man does not understand.
The less that's inexplicable, the less need for a 'God' explanation."

"The problem with theism is that it never remains within
the realm of belief, but invariably proceeds to assertion"

Andrew wrote:
> "Mitchell Holman" wrote in message
> news:XnsB17F6268E5ECF629555@185.151.15.160...
>> El Kabong wrote:
>>> Andrew wrote:
>>>> "Mitchell Holman" wrote:
>>>> > "Andrew" wrote:
>>>> >> "Mitchell Holman" wrote:
>>>> >>> "Andrew" wrote:
>>>> >>>> "Mitchell Holman" wrote:
>>>> >>>>> "Andrew" wrote:
>>>> >>>>>> "Mitchell Holman" wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>> "Andrew" wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>>> "Mitchell Holman" wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>>>> Michael Christ wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Dawn Flood wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Michael Christ wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The more I watch this the funnier it gets.
>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/shorts/TVKceAm7toY
>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> This is click-bait, Michael. What you find funny
>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> to others may be disgusting.
>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Dawn
>>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Oh, for goodness sake, Dawn, you are getting more
>>>> >>>>>>>>>> idiotic than Maximus!
>>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Atheists: going nowhere, knowing nowhere, and
>>>> >>>>>>>>>. ending nowhere!
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>    Everyone is born an atheist. Religion
>>>> >>>>>>>>> has to taught, learned, and enforced with
>>>> >>>>>>>>> threats.
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> Yet the fanatical atheistic regimes of China,
>>>> >>>>>>>> N.Korea and old Russia have been foremost
>>>> >>>>>>>> in the slaughter of the innocents.
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>    You miss the point. Your religion
>>>> >>>>>>> doesn't care about the innocents, it
>>>> >>>>>>> delights in slaughtering the innocents.
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> Yet you are still with us!
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> Total number killed by God in the Bible
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> The Flood of Noah..........20,000,000
>>>> >>>>>>> Abraham's war to rescue Lot.....1,000
>>>> >>>>>>> Sodom and Gomorrah..............2,000
>>>> >>>>>>> Lot's wife..........................1
>>>> >>>>>>> Dinah's brethren slew all males..1,000
>>>> >>>>>>> A seven year worldwide famine...70,000
>>>> >>>>>>> The first plague of Egypt.......10,000
>>>> >>>>>>> The seventh plague: hail........300,000
>>>> >>>>>>> Firstborn Egyptian children.....500,000
>>>> >>>>>>> Amalekites................... 1,000
>>>> >>>>>>> Golden Calf Worshippers.........3,000
>>>> >>>>>>> https://tinyurl.com/yaxtdarz
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> You miss the point. The entire human
>>>> >>>>>> race before us this day..have died. This
>>>> >>>>>> goes way beyond your little list above.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>    Your god loves humanity, life
>>>> >>>>> is sacred, but he keeps killing
>>>> >>>>> innocent people.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>    Why is that?
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> The Bible answers all of your
>>>> >>>> questions and more.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> Your ignorance is inexcusable.
>>>> >>>> bringing you to absurd conclusions.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>     Can't answer the question, I see.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>     No surprise there.............
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Although it is answered, you cannot
>>>> >> understand. Thus suggesting you
>>>> >> have a problem with wickedness.
>>>> >
>>>> >   "The answer is in the Bible
>>>> > somewhere, look it up yourself"
>>>> >
>>>> >   Sorry, Artie/Joe used that
>>>> > evasion already, find another.
>>>>
>>>> Only when you are willing to forsake
>>>> your wickedness,will you be able to
>>>> understand.
>>>>
>>>> "None of the wicked will understand,
>>>>  those who are wise will understand."
>>>>                 ~ Daniel 12:10
>>>
>>> Lol.  It's the old "the bible is proven, but you can't
>>> understand the proof unless you believe the bible
>>> totally."
>>
>>    You know you have won the argument
>> when you get a "you just have to have
>> faith" response........
>
> "Those who are unspiritual don't accept the
> things from God's Spirit. They are foolishness
> to them and can't be  understood, because they
> can only be comprehended in a spiritual way."
>                 ~ 1 Corinthians 2:14
>
> If one has decidedly rejected Jesus, they will
> then find excuse to reject whatever He said.
>
> If you reject His offer of salvation then you
> will be destined to die in your sins, and thus
> face the Judgemet with no advocate for your
> defense.

there will be no judgement, because there are so souls, and no heaven or
hell. prove me wrong

>
> "If you do not believe that I am He,
>  you will die in your sins." ~ Jesus
>

prove Jesus ever said it

--
“Atheism is the birth right of all human, remember that!”- hhyapster 7.4.23

"Christian beliefs fail against reason, facts, and knowledge"

"Religion is not about truth, it's about lifestyle"

"God is a convenient explanation for what man does not understand.
The less that's inexplicable, the less need for a 'God' explanation."

"The problem with theism is that it never remains within
the realm of belief, but invariably proceeds to assertion"

"Dawn Flood" wrote in message news:v36j3t$11k1a$1@dont-email.me...
> Mitchell Holman wrote:
>>"Andrew" wrote:
>>> "Dawn Flood" wrote:
>>>> D wrote:
>>>>> Dawn Flood wrote:
>>>>>> Creon wrote:
>>>>>>> Andrew wrote:
>>>>>>>> "Dawn Flood" wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We all sail on the same ship, Michael. It's just that some of us
>>>>>>>>> choose to spend our time up on the deck as opposed to scowling
>>>>>>>>> down below.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dawn
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ~~~~ The *Ship of Fools* ~~~~.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "We're setting sail. To the place on the map From which no one
>>>>>>>> has ever returned Drawn by the promise of the joker and the fool.
>>>>>>>> The gold, cotton and the pearls.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's the place where they keep all the darkness you need.You sail
>>>>>>>> away from the light of the world (away from Jesus) on this trip,
>>>>>>>> baby
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Together they ride the ship into Hell,
>>>>>>>> with pools of fire lapping in the wake.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They listen as the bellman tolls.......,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Forward on into the brimstone lake!!"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Damnation doctrine is spiritual terrorism.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Growing up in a fundamentalist Christian church, I used to have
>>>>>> night terrors about dying and going to Hell. When I found out that
>>>>>> Hell is located in New Jersey, it wasn't such a big deal.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dawn
>>>>>
>>>>> You did? Would you mind sharing the experience and process of how
>>>>> you came to become an atheist? It must be quite difficult to realize
>>>>> and change, especially if a lot of friends and family are into the
>>>>> sect.
>>>>
>>>> Oh, that's simple. I got interested in science, and from there,
>>>> I learned the scientific method gradually over time. Scientists
>>>> are constantly testing their theories and models;
>>>
>>> Intelligent design uses the scientific method to detect the hallmarks
>>> of design in both living systems and the universe at large If one is
>>> honest and goes by 'science' they must invariably acknowledge the
>>> evidence of ~design~ all throughout the Creation. That is a fact.
>>
>> "Those stars are lined up in the
>> shape of a bear. Proof of design!"
>>
>> "The moon seems to have a human
>> face. Proof of design!"
>>
>> "Our atmosphere is perferctly
>> suited for us to breathe. Proof
>> of design!"
>>
>> You can find design in anything
>> if you want to..........
>
> Yep. A scientific experiment whose outcome is known in advance, apart from
> being educational and/or a hobby, is of limited utility, unless you are
> trying to fix something, say, one's vacuum cleaner.
>
> Ditto for the whole ID paradigm; what would be the point of writing a grant
> proposal to research "How God did it?"
>
> Dawn

No need for any grant because we already have the facts. A common
sense interpretation of them would tell you that a super-intellect has
monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology. And
that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature.

The numbers one calculates from this are so overwhelming as to put
this beyond question--except--for those who have a philosophical
bias which prevents them from acknowledging the obvious truth..

"Andrew" <andrew.321.remov@usa.net> wrote in
news:BsC5O.128442$THi.48041@fx01.ams4:

> "Dawn Flood" wrote in message news:v36j3t$11k1a$1@dont-email.me...
>> Mitchell Holman wrote:
>>>"Andrew" wrote:
>>>> "Dawn Flood" wrote:
>>>>> D wrote:
>>>>>> Dawn Flood wrote:
>>>>>>> Creon wrote:
>>>>>>>> Andrew wrote:
>>>>>>>>> "Dawn Flood" wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We all sail on the same ship, Michael. It's just that some of
>>>>>>>>>> us choose to spend our time up on the deck as opposed to
>>>>>>>>>> scowling down below.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Dawn
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ~~~~ The *Ship of Fools* ~~~~.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "We're setting sail. To the place on the map From which no one
>>>>>>>>> has ever returned Drawn by the promise of the joker and the
>>>>>>>>> fool. The gold, cotton and the pearls.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It's the place where they keep all the darkness you need.You
>>>>>>>>> sail away from the light of the world (away from Jesus) on
>>>>>>>>> this trip, baby
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Together they ride the ship into Hell,
>>>>>>>>> with pools of fire lapping in the wake.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> They listen as the bellman tolls.......,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Forward on into the brimstone lake!!"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Damnation doctrine is spiritual terrorism.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Growing up in a fundamentalist Christian church, I used to have
>>>>>>> night terrors about dying and going to Hell. When I found out
>>>>>>> that Hell is located in New Jersey, it wasn't such a big deal.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dawn
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You did? Would you mind sharing the experience and process of how
>>>>>> you came to become an atheist? It must be quite difficult to
>>>>>> realize and change, especially if a lot of friends and family are
>>>>>> into the sect.
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh, that's simple. I got interested in science, and from there,
>>>>> I learned the scientific method gradually over time. Scientists
>>>>> are constantly testing their theories and models;
>>>>
>>>> Intelligent design uses the scientific method to detect the
>>>> hallmarks of design in both living systems and the universe at
>>>> large If one is honest and goes by 'science' they must invariably
>>>> acknowledge the evidence of ~design~ all throughout the Creation.
>>>> That is a fact.
>>>
>>> "Those stars are lined up in the
>>> shape of a bear. Proof of design!"
>>>
>>> "The moon seems to have a human
>>> face. Proof of design!"
>>>
>>> "Our atmosphere is perferctly
>>> suited for us to breathe. Proof
>>> of design!"
>>>
>>> You can find design in anything
>>> if you want to..........
>>
>> Yep. A scientific experiment whose outcome is known in advance,
>> apart from being educational and/or a hobby, is of limited utility,
>> unless you are trying to fix something, say, one's vacuum cleaner.
>>
>> Ditto for the whole ID paradigm; what would be the point of writing a
>> grant proposal to research "How God did it?"
>>
>> Dawn
>
> No need for any grant because we already have the facts. A common
> sense interpretation

That is your first flaw. Facts are not
determined by common sense. It is not common
sense that animals live in your bloodstream
or rocks can fall from the sky but facts
prove otherwise.

> of them would tell you that a super-intellect has
> monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology. And
> that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature.
>
> The numbers one calculates from this are so overwhelming as to put
> this beyond question--except--for those who have a philosophical
> bias which prevents them from acknowledging the obvious truth..
>

Truth is seldom obvious.

"Mitchell Holman" wrote in message news:XnsB181523F51DC3629555@185.151.15.160...
> "Andrew" wrote:
>> "Dawn Flood" wrote:
>>> Mitchell Holman wrote:
>>>>"Andrew" wrote:
>>>>> "Dawn Flood" wrote:
>>>>>> D wrote:
>>>>>>> Dawn Flood wrote:
>>>>>>>> Creon wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Andrew wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> "Dawn Flood" wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> We all sail on the same ship, Michael. It's just that some of
>>>>>>>>>>> us choose to spend our time up on the deck as opposed to
>>>>>>>>>>> scowling down below.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Dawn
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ~~~~ The *Ship of Fools* ~~~~.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "We're setting sail. To the place on the map From which no one
>>>>>>>>>> has ever returned Drawn by the promise of the joker and the
>>>>>>>>>> fool. The gold, cotton and the pearls.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It's the place where they keep all the darkness you need.You
>>>>>>>>>> sail away from the light of the world (away from Jesus) on
>>>>>>>>>> this trip, baby
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Together they ride the ship into Hell,
>>>>>>>>>> with pools of fire lapping in the wake.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> They listen as the bellman tolls.......,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Forward on into the brimstone lake!!"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Damnation doctrine is spiritual terrorism.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Growing up in a fundamentalist Christian church, I used to have
>>>>>>>> night terrors about dying and going to Hell. When I found out
>>>>>>>> that Hell is located in New Jersey, it wasn't such a big deal.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dawn
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You did? Would you mind sharing the experience and process of how
>>>>>>> you came to become an atheist? It must be quite difficult to
>>>>>>> realize and change, especially if a lot of friends and family are
>>>>>>> into the sect.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oh, that's simple. I got interested in science, and from there,
>>>>>> I learned the scientific method gradually over time. Scientists
>>>>>> are constantly testing their theories and models;
>>>>>
>>>>> Intelligent design uses the scientific method to detect the
>>>>> hallmarks of design in both living systems and the universe at
>>>>> large If one is honest and goes by 'science' they must invariably
>>>>> acknowledge the evidence of ~design~ all throughout the Creation.
>>>>> That is a fact.
>>>>
>>>> "Those stars are lined up in the
>>>> shape of a bear. Proof of design!"
>>>>
>>>> "The moon seems to have a human
>>>> face. Proof of design!"
>>>>
>>>> "Our atmosphere is perferctly
>>>> suited for us to breathe. Proof
>>>> of design!"
>>>>
>>>> You can find design in anything
>>>> if you want to..........
>>>
>>> Yep. A scientific experiment whose outcome is known in advance,
>>> apart from being educational and/or a hobby, is of limited utility,
>>> unless you are trying to fix something, say, one's vacuum cleaner.
>>>
>>> Ditto for the whole ID paradigm; what would be the point of writing a
>>> grant proposal to research "How God did it?"
>>>
>>> Dawn
>>
>> No need for any grant because we already have the facts. A common
>> sense interpretation
>
> That is your first flaw. Facts are not determined by common sense.

No one claimed that. Common sense may be deduced from facts.

> It is not common
> sense that animals live in your bloodstream
> or rocks can fall from the sky but facts
> prove otherwise.
>
>> of them would tell you that a super-intellect has
>> monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology. And
>> that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature.
>>
>> The numbers one calculates from this are so overwhelming as to put
>> this beyond question--except--for those who have a philosophical
>> bias which prevents them from acknowledging the obvious truth..
>
> Truth is seldom obvious.

It isn't for those who have a "philosophical bias" that prevents them
from acknowledging it. Such is the case with ~ our atheist friends.

Lol!

On Wed, 29 May 2024, Maximus wrote:

> Andrew wrote:
>> "Maximus" wrote in message news:lbdfa4Fpt7cU1@mid.individual.net...
>>> Creon wrote:
>>>> Michael Christ wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Atheism is a belief,
>>>
>>>> Wrong-o.  It's a lack of a belief.  It's right there
>>>> in the name: _A_theist.
>>>
>>> technically you are correct. atheism means without theism, ie. not theist.
>>> however, since theism is belief in the existence of a divine being, not
>>> believing in the existence of a divine being. ie. believing a divine being
>>> does not exist, is also atheism. ie. not theist
>>
>> However if you are unable to explain WHO
>> did it, THEN your belief system is ----->> *intellectually indefensible*.
>
> nonsense. not knowing how the Universe came to be does mean some god did it

This is true! Logically, there is nothing to suggest that just because we
do not know, the christian white god (or any god for that matter) did it.

We simply, at the moment, do not know. That's all.

>>
>> Because evidence points to the fact that...
>> some super intelligent Agency...did it.
>>
>> Yes.
>
> there's merit in the argument from what I've seen. for example the level of
> gravity is precisely what's needed for life here to exist, and some minor
> variation up or down would result in a catastrophe. however, it could still
> have happened randomly. for example the chance of winning powerball is 1 in
> 134.5 million yet some person won it last week and is $150 million richer.

Survivorship bias. There possibly have been billions of universes, but
since we by design can only exist in this one, it seems as if it would be
tailored to us, but in reality, we are just one out of billions.

"Andrew" <andrew.321.remov@usa.net> wrote in
news:qIG5O.130168$2pr4.30547@fx11.ams4:

> "Mitchell Holman" wrote in message
> news:XnsB181523F51DC3629555@185.151.15.160...
>> "Andrew" wrote:
>>> "Dawn Flood" wrote:
>>>> Mitchell Holman wrote:
>>>>>"Andrew" wrote:
>>>>>> "Dawn Flood" wrote:
>>>>>>> D wrote:
>>>>>>>> Dawn Flood wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Creon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Andrew wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> "Dawn Flood" wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> We all sail on the same ship, Michael. It's just that some
>>>>>>>>>>>> of us choose to spend our time up on the deck as opposed to
>>>>>>>>>>>> scowling down below.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dawn
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ~~~~ The *Ship of Fools* ~~~~.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "We're setting sail. To the place on the map From which no
>>>>>>>>>>> one has ever returned Drawn by the promise of the joker and
>>>>>>>>>>> the fool. The gold, cotton and the pearls.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It's the place where they keep all the darkness you need.You
>>>>>>>>>>> sail away from the light of the world (away from Jesus) on
>>>>>>>>>>> this trip, baby
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Together they ride the ship into Hell,
>>>>>>>>>>> with pools of fire lapping in the wake.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> They listen as the bellman tolls.......,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "Forward on into the brimstone lake!!"
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Damnation doctrine is spiritual terrorism.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Growing up in a fundamentalist Christian church, I used to
>>>>>>>>> have night terrors about dying and going to Hell. When I found
>>>>>>>>> out that Hell is located in New Jersey, it wasn't such a big
>>>>>>>>> deal.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dawn
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You did? Would you mind sharing the experience and process of
>>>>>>>> how you came to become an atheist? It must be quite difficult
>>>>>>>> to realize and change, especially if a lot of friends and
>>>>>>>> family are into the sect.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Oh, that's simple. I got interested in science, and from there,
>>>>>>> I learned the scientific method gradually over time. Scientists
>>>>>>> are constantly testing their theories and models;
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Intelligent design uses the scientific method to detect the
>>>>>> hallmarks of design in both living systems and the universe at
>>>>>> large If one is honest and goes by 'science' they must
>>>>>> invariably acknowledge the evidence of ~design~ all throughout
>>>>>> the Creation. That is a fact.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Those stars are lined up in the
>>>>> shape of a bear. Proof of design!"
>>>>>
>>>>> "The moon seems to have a human
>>>>> face. Proof of design!"
>>>>>
>>>>> "Our atmosphere is perferctly
>>>>> suited for us to breathe. Proof
>>>>> of design!"
>>>>>
>>>>> You can find design in anything
>>>>> if you want to..........
>>>>
>>>> Yep. A scientific experiment whose outcome is known in advance,
>>>> apart from being educational and/or a hobby, is of limited utility,
>>>> unless you are trying to fix something, say, one's vacuum cleaner.
>>>>
>>>> Ditto for the whole ID paradigm; what would be the point of writing
>>>> a grant proposal to research "How God did it?"
>>>>
>>>> Dawn
>>>
>>> No need for any grant because we already have the facts. A common
>>> sense interpretation
>>
>> That is your first flaw. Facts are not determined by common sense.
>
> No one claimed that. Common sense may be deduced from facts.
>

And according to that common sense
there is no invisible man in the sky
who protects you and who will judge
you, there are no demons or angels,
prayer does not work, there is no heaven
or hell.

None of those come from fact OR
common sense.

D wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, 29 May 2024, Maximus wrote:
>
>> Andrew wrote:
>>> "Maximus" wrote in message news:lbdfa4Fpt7cU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>> Creon wrote:
>>>>> Michael Christ wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Atheism is a belief,
>>>>
>>>>> Wrong-o.  It's a lack of a belief. It's right there
>>>>> in the name: _A_theist.
>>>>
>>>> technically you are correct. atheism means without theism, ie. not
>>>> theist. however, since theism is belief in the existence of a
>>>> divine being, not believing in the existence of a divine being. ie.
>>>> believing a divine being does not exist, is also atheism. ie. not
>>>> theist
>>>
>>> However if you are unable to explain WHO
>>> did it, THEN your belief system is ----->> *intellectually
>>> indefensible*.
>>
>> nonsense. not knowing how the Universe came to be does mean some god
>> did it
>
> This is true! Logically, there is nothing to suggest that just because
> we do not know, the christian white god (or any god for that matter)
> did it.
>
> We simply, at the moment, do not know. That's all.
>
>>>
>>> Because evidence points to the fact that...
>>> some super intelligent Agency...did it.
>>>
>>> Yes.
>>
>> there's merit in the argument from what I've seen. for example the
>> level of gravity is precisely what's needed for life here to exist,
>> and some minor variation up or down would result in a catastrophe.
>> however, it could still have happened randomly. for example the
>> chance of winning powerball is 1 in 134.5 million yet some person won
>> it last week and is $150 million richer.
>
> Survivorship bias. There possibly have been billions of universes, but
> since we by design can only exist in this one, it seems as if it would
> be tailored to us, but in reality, we are just one out of billions.

good point.

"If we assume that there is one planet per star in each galaxy, then
there are about 2 trillion planets in the observable universe."

https://testbook.com/geography/how-many-planets-are-there-in-the-universe

--
“Atheism is the birth right of all human, remember that!”- hhyapster 7.4.23

"Christian beliefs fail against reason, facts, and knowledge"

"Religion is not about truth, it's about lifestyle"

"God is a convenient explanation for what man does not understand.
The less that's inexplicable, the less need for a 'God' explanation."

"The problem with theism is that it never remains within
the realm of belief, but invariably proceeds to assertion"

Andrew wrote:
> "Mitchell Holman" wrote in message
> news:XnsB181523F51DC3629555@185.151.15.160...
>> "Andrew" wrote:
>>> "Dawn Flood" wrote:
>>>> Mitchell Holman wrote:
>>>>> "Andrew" wrote:
>>>>>> "Dawn Flood" wrote:
>>>>>>> D wrote:
>>>>>>>> Dawn Flood wrote:
>>>>>>>>>  Creon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Andrew wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> "Dawn Flood" wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> We all sail on the same ship, Michael. It's just that some of
>>>>>>>>>>>> us choose to spend our time up on the deck as opposed to
>>>>>>>>>>>> scowling down below.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dawn
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ~~~~ The *Ship of Fools* ~~~~.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "We're setting sail. To the place on the map From which no one
>>>>>>>>>>> has ever returned Drawn by the promise of the joker and the
>>>>>>>>>>> fool. The gold, cotton and the pearls.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It's the place where they keep all the darkness you need.You
>>>>>>>>>>> sail away from the light of the world (away from Jesus) on
>>>>>>>>>>> this trip, baby
>>>>>>>>>>> Together they ride the ship into Hell,
>>>>>>>>>>> with pools of fire lapping in the wake.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> They listen as the bellman tolls.......,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "Forward on into the brimstone lake!!"
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Damnation doctrine is spiritual terrorism.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Growing up in a fundamentalist Christian church, I used to have
>>>>>>>>> night terrors about dying and going to Hell. When I found out
>>>>>>>>> that Hell is located in New Jersey, it wasn't such a big deal.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dawn
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You did? Would you mind sharing the experience and process of how
>>>>>>>> you came to become an atheist? It must be quite difficult to
>>>>>>>> realize and change, especially if a lot of friends and family are
>>>>>>>> into the sect.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Oh, that's simple.  I got interested in science, and from there,
>>>>>>> I learned the scientific method gradually over time. Scientists
>>>>>>> are constantly testing their theories and models;
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Intelligent design uses the scientific method to detect the
>>>>>> hallmarks of design in both living systems and the universe at
>>>>>> large  If one is honest and goes by 'science' they must invariably
>>>>>> acknowledge the evidence of ~design~ all throughout the Creation.
>>>>>> That is a fact.
>>>>>
>>>>>  "Those stars are lined up in the   shape of a bear. Proof of
>>>>> design!"
>>>>>
>>>>>  "The moon seems to have a human   face. Proof of design!"
>>>>>
>>>>>   "Our atmosphere is perferctly suited for us to breathe. Proof
>>>>> of design!"
>>>>>
>>>>>    You can find design in anything
>>>>>  if you want to..........
>>>>
>>>> Yep.  A scientific experiment whose outcome is known in advance,
>>>> apart from being educational and/or a hobby, is of limited utility,
>>>> unless you are trying to fix something, say, one's vacuum cleaner.
>>>>
>>>> Ditto for the whole ID paradigm; what would be the point of writing a
>>>> grant proposal to research "How God did it?"
>>>>
>>>> Dawn
>>>
>>> No need for any grant because we already have the facts. A common
>>> sense interpretation
>>
>>    That is your first flaw. Facts are not determined by common sense.
>
> No one claimed that. Common sense may be deduced from facts.
>
>> It is not common
>> sense that animals live in your bloodstream
>> or rocks can fall from the sky but facts prove otherwise.
>>> of them would tell you that a super-intellect has
>>> monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology. And
>>> that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature.
>>> The numbers one calculates from this are so overwhelming as to put
>>> this beyond question--except--for those who have a philosophical
>>> bias which prevents them from acknowledging the obvious truth..
>>
>>     Truth is seldom obvious.
>
> It isn't for those who have a "philosophical bias" that prevents them
> from acknowledging it. Such is the case with ~ our atheist friends.
>
>

theists have a theological bias the prevents them from acknowledging
truth and facts

--
“Atheism is the birth right of all human, remember that!”- hhyapster 7.4.23

"Christian beliefs fail against reason, facts, and knowledge"

"Religion is not about truth, it's about lifestyle"

"God is a convenient explanation for what man does not understand.
The less that's inexplicable, the less need for a 'God' explanation."

"The problem with theism is that it never remains within
the realm of belief, but invariably proceeds to assertion"

On Thu, 30 May 2024, Maximus wrote:

> D wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 29 May 2024, Maximus wrote:
>>
>>> Andrew wrote:
>>>> "Maximus" wrote in message news:lbdfa4Fpt7cU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>> Creon wrote:
>>>>>> Michael Christ wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Atheism is a belief,
>>>>>
>>>>>> Wrong-o.  It's a lack of a belief. It's right there
>>>>>> in the name: _A_theist.
>>>>>
>>>>> technically you are correct. atheism means without theism, ie. not
>>>>> theist. however, since theism is belief in the existence of a divine
>>>>> being, not believing in the existence of a divine being. ie. believing a
>>>>> divine being does not exist, is also atheism. ie. not theist
>>>>
>>>> However if you are unable to explain WHO
>>>> did it, THEN your belief system is ----->> *intellectually indefensible*.
>>>
>>> nonsense. not knowing how the Universe came to be does mean some god did
>>> it
>>
>> This is true! Logically, there is nothing to suggest that just because we
>> do not know, the christian white god (or any god for that matter) did it.
>>
>> We simply, at the moment, do not know. That's all.
>>
>>>>
>>>> Because evidence points to the fact that...
>>>> some super intelligent Agency...did it.
>>>>
>>>> Yes.
>>>
>>> there's merit in the argument from what I've seen. for example the level
>>> of gravity is precisely what's needed for life here to exist, and some
>>> minor variation up or down would result in a catastrophe. however, it
>>> could still have happened randomly. for example the chance of winning
>>> powerball is 1 in 134.5 million yet some person won it last week and is
>>> $150 million richer.
>>
>> Survivorship bias. There possibly have been billions of universes, but
>> since we by design can only exist in this one, it seems as if it would be
>> tailored to us, but in reality, we are just one out of billions.
>
> good point.
>
> "If we assume that there is one planet per star in each galaxy, then there
> are about 2 trillion planets in the observable universe."
>
> https://testbook.com/geography/how-many-planets-are-there-in-the-universe

Yes! And keep in mind that the human mind is exceptionally bad at
handling and reasoning with large numbers and infinities, and that that
frequently gives rise to errors in thinking.